[ivesonswc]

hi

 i work on my own or with my wife i do all houses and only go to the first floor i know how to use a ladders safley if i have people working for me then i would use wfp due to the fact not all emplayees have the brains they were born with. at the end of the day ladders are safe but sometime people do have accidents with them.

lots of people die evey year due to user error or faulty equipment thats life

plus wfp hasn't been around long enough for doctors to know if their are any issues regarding neck & arm muscel problems

[williamx]

hi

 i work on my own or with my wife i do all houses and only go to the first floor i know how to use a ladders safley if i have people working for me then i would use wfp due to the fact not all emplayees have the brains they were born with. at the end of the day ladders are safe but sometime people do have accidents with them.

lots of people die evey year due to user error or faulty equipment thats life

plus wfp hasn't been around long enough for doctors to know if their are any issues regarding neck & arm muscel problems

Wfp has been around for almost 50 years which is enough time to find out if there are any health risks.

It started in the USA the country thats likes to sue anyone  for $millions, if their was a heath risk with wfp then the law suits would have started, so far I have not heard of one.

[williamx]

if ladders are banned for window cleaners why do they sell them also if you dont have a waterfed set you cant use it as a safer alternative can you so there for my only way of cleaning windows is using a ladder 

you can go into any maplins store and buy a radio scammer, which is legal for maplins to sell, but if you turn it on you are breaking the law.

The same applys with ladders, you can legally buy one but if you use it against the whad then you are breaking the law.

and finally you cannot claim that because you don't have a wfp system, leaves you no alternative but to use ladders, the hse will say don't clean the windows until you do have the right equipment for the job, and with a basic wfp system costing around £300, if you are in business and you cannot afford this, then its about time you looked at whether window cleaning for a living, is worthwhile for you.

[ivesonswc]

You know what i am going to do is start a new  poll thread to see how many wfp window cleaners have have trip or slip due to wfp

[woody1]

i have got more than enough to go out and buy a van set up but i choose not to i enjoy climbing ladders, ive had a few scary moments now i use a stopper on some windows where needed, i did use a standoff but did not feel comfortable with one so back to mitts also have ladder spikes that get quite a lot use  

have been looking at a backpack for windows i wont clean off ladders as got a friend with ploe system to get water from

I still think they will not enforce a ladder ban as its silly people using b and q domestic ladders with no clue make ladders look unsafe  

[woody1]

if 3 holidays a new car last year is not making a living as well as buying my house then maybe
you dont know me or my buissness so why do you make comments it personal choice how i clean plus wfp isnt that good any way and i like to see how cleanmy work is 

[ivesonswc]

if/when the h&s or goverment ban window cleaners from using ladders and enforce wfp do you honestly think is will stop their it wont they will bring out more rules and regulations regards the safe use of wfp and might strart charging us operator fees for the water we would be using

[Ian W]

[quote

Please explain why it is against wahr?

You can only use a ladder after consulting safer options, as all work has to be done from the ground, also if you are to use a ladder a full written risk assesment has to be made, and then if you still use a ladder it has to be secured. Fact
forget the WAHR, do you secure & do risk assesment
As for the post of the paralysed window cleaner not getting paid out as he was not covered, or as most policys have a work within the law get out, like the paralysed w/c

as most who thinks, s*d it I l just use a ladder, and never reply and hope the post goes away, I lookh forward to yoyr reply

idealrob

He already said that he wouldn't be able to clean that particular sill from the ground, although I will concede he might have been able to have cleaned it from inside.

As you are an employer, then I think you are right to ensure that everything is done as much from the ground as possible.

[williamx]

if/when the h&s or goverment ban window cleaners from using ladders and enforce wfp do you honestly think is will stop their it wont they will bring out more rules and regulations regards the safe use of wfp and might strart charging us operator fees for the water we would be using

The govement will not ban ladders, not because they think they should be, but because of the outcry from trad window cleaners and the negative publicity it will cause them.

Instead they will allow the HSE- Courts and the Insurance Companies to police it.

The HSE and Insurance companies will turn a blind eye if you use ladders, but when you have a fall and you die or are injured, the insurance company will point to the whad and decline your claim, then the hse will prosicute you.

If you are lucky you might recover enough so you can go back to work to pay the court fine and costs, if not then that nice home will end up being auctioned and you will join the end of a long list waiting for council homes.

and as for being charged for water, the goverment and water companies have said that every home in the UK will be on a meter, so the wfp cleaners will be paying for the water they use.

[Ian W]

. Now insurance companies refusing to insure for ladders may be another issue and one that could lead to the demise of professional trad cleaners.

insurance companys wont pay out if you have spikes on your ladders so thats most around here up the creek as we all have spikes

Why won't they pay out for spikes, Stan?

[Ian W]

Sorry, this is just scaremainering now. HSE has already said they do not want to ban ladders, just make their use safer. The wahr is also wooly in parts - safety devices are mentioned, but not defined. When all of the rules are clearly defined, then we will all know what exactly we are supposed to do. At the moment, the rules are open to interpretation.

[lcwalker]

A few final questions
1-Are ladders banned?
2-Do some wfp guys want them banned to gain more customers?
3-Are ladders at fault or is it the user?
4-If ladders were banned who would be going around checking?
5-If a maximum height was introduced whos going to come and check with there tape measure?
6-Is there some jobs you have to have a ladder for?
7-A test and licence, would it stop falls?
8-Would a ban be more to stop a little business rather than for the falls?
9-What if theres a drought would windows have to be left dirty?
10-Is it me or a people trying to ruin one of the last jobs you can start doing without to much rules and regulations?.

When i get a few more customers i will go WFP but i shall still have my ladder in the van because i know there will be times i need it.

[lcwalker]

if/when the h&s or goverment ban window cleaners from using ladders and enforce wfp do you honestly think is will stop their it wont they will bring out more rules and regulations regards the safe use of wfp and might strart charging us operator fees for the water we would be using

The govement will not ban ladders, not because they think they should be, but because of the outcry from trad window cleaners and the negative publicity it will cause them.

Instead they will allow the HSE- Courts and the Insurance Companies to police it.

The HSE and Insurance companies will turn a blind eye if you use ladders, but when you have a fall and you die or are injured, the insurance company will point to the whad and decline your claim, then the hse will prosicute you.

If you are lucky you might recover enough so you can go back to work to pay the court fine and costs, if not then that nice home will end up being auctioned and you will join the end of a long list waiting for council homes.

and as for being charged for water, the goverment and water companies have said that every home in the UK will be on a meter, so the wfp cleaners will be paying for the water they use.

I already have a council house and it's quite a nice one in a tourist area .But i get your point but i do belive ladders will stay but tighter regulations will no doubt come in the future.

[cozy]

If I lived and worked this malarky in the UK, I would be WFP only I think. Firstly, it seems 95% of the work is outsides only. Nearly all domestic windows open outwards for some reason, and it seems to be faster than trad. The ladders I've seen on this forum look a bit narrow and awkward, so I would be tempted to go WFP just because of that.

Nearly all of the domestic stuff I have over here is one piece upvc framed. A dodlle to do trad. Very good points to both sides of this discussion have already been made hundreds of times on here. Some of us wonder how many times it will be discussed, but that's the way it is lol.

I am in the Carpet scrubbers section of this forum now and again. They get the same thing on there. Van mounted and portable systems. Gets abit heated too sometimes.

I suspect that the WFP guys would agree with me when I say it must be a few things that disadvantage them when getting custies. I may be wrong, but this is what I imagine the problems to be.

Custies don't understand the difference between pure water and tap water.
Custies think it's a lazy way of doing the job.
Custies think a 10 quid job should at least leave the WC sweating for his money.
They think if the street has a trad WC that a WFP WC is cheating for some reason. 

To get rid of these attitudes, it would be easier for the WFP guys, if the custy had no choice, so the only option would be WFP. Problems solved in one easy step.

It seems that this topic seems to be brought up MOSTLY by WFP guys. I'm not having a pop at WFPers. Like I said, I would be WFP if I lived in UK. But if the other WC's working next to you are trad, don't worry about it. They will all land in prison soon, or so it would seem from the posts on this thread.

[martinsadie]

. Now insurance companies refusing to insure for ladders may be another issue and one that could lead to the demise of professional trad cleaners.

insurance companys wont pay out if you have spikes on your ladders so thats most around here up the creek as we all have spikes

Why won't they pay out for spikes, Stan?

might be wrong there,but they wont pay out for diy ladders and when you spike the ladders the warrenty on the ladders are void as the makers dont regonise them as a safty device

[williamx]

A few final questions
1-Are ladders banned?
2-Do some wfp guys want them banned to gain more customers?
3-Are ladders at fault or is it the user?
4-If ladders were banned who would be going around checking?
5-If a maximum height was introduced whos going to come and check with there tape measure?
6-Is there some jobs you have to have a ladder for?
7-A test and licence, would it stop falls?
8-Would a ban be more to stop a little business rather than for the falls?
9-What if theres a drought would windows have to be left dirty?
10-Is it me or a people trying to ruin one of the last jobs you can start doing without to much rules and regulations?.

When i get a few more customers i will go WFP but i shall still have my ladder in the van because i know there will be times i need it.

A few final questions
1-Are ladders banned?

They are not banned, they are supposed to be the last resort in cleaning windows

2-Do some wfp guys want them banned to gain more customers?

I don’t think, I think that wfp’s users now understand that you do not have to put your health or life on the line just to earn a living.
 
3-Are ladders at fault or is it the user?

Both

4-If ladders were banned who would be going around checking?

Men in rain coats and a clip board

5-If a maximum height was introduced whos going to come and check with there tape measure?

See answer 4

6-Is there some jobs you have to have a ladder for?

There are many jobs and industries that ladders are the only practical option for use, window cleaning is now not one of them.

7-A test and licence, would it stop falls?

A test and re-tests every couple of years - ladder mot and proper training would help

8-Would a ban be more to stop a little business rather than for the falls?

Sorry I don’t understand the question?

9-What if theres a drought would windows have to be left dirty?

A drought only lasts for a few weeks so if the windows are left dirty, then so be it, the last proper drought was in 1976, so it not that regular to really affect the livelihood of cleaners.

10-Is it me or a people trying to ruin one of the last jobs you can start doing without to much rules and regulations?.
No, its just people who are trying to prevent cleaners dying.

[formb]

Banning ladders would actually make our job more dangerous.

Sometimes the safest "reasonably practicable" way to clean a window is to climb up a ladder.

[Nathanael Jones]

Banning ladders would actually make our job more dangerous.

Explain?

[The Jester of Wibbly]

the roads are dangerous, so should cars be banned?   

[Nathanael Jones]

the roads are dangerous, so should cars be banned?   

Only when teleportation becomes a reasonably practicable alternative.