[gaza]

HAS ANYONE HEARD OF ANYONE BEING PROSSICUTED RE THESE NEW REGS,IT SEEMS IM THE ONLY ONE IN THIS PART OF NOTTM CONFORMING FULLY.

Ive lost count of the amount of w/c flounting the regs atl east 20 Ive seen just propping ladders against the wall. even up to third window height.

 WHAT ARE WFP THINKING?
 I PUT IT TO YOU THAT HS ARNT BOTHERED.
or else at least 20 w/c would be done by now .How can I see them h/s dont?

EITHER YOU CONFORM OR YOU DONT,BAN LADDERS ALTOGETHER OR NOT,LICENCE W/C OR NOT.SO MANY OR NOTS.
HS SHOULD SAY ONE OR THE OTHER FINAL.
NOT AVING A POP AT PEOPLE WHO ARE USING LADDERS WITH SAFETY DEVICES FITTED.

QUESTION: ARE H/S POLICING THESE NEW REGS YET?

[Sir Squeaky]

I don't think anyone will get any bother for the forseeable future.

I was up the second tier in town the other day with pedestrians about when two coppers approached.
I was just about to start making excuses when they smiled and said "alright mate!"

Since then I'm not worried. If I get asked I'll claim to know nothing about it.

Lets face it, it's not like there was a big article about in the tabloid papers, and most hard grafters like us read the rubbish papers.
If it was that definate it would have been all over The Sun for a start, as it's not just window cleaners, but all sorts of trades affected.
It would have been a nationwide debate...

It's my neck anyway.
If I didn't make sure I was safe I wouldn't do it.

Roger.

[The Bear]

The new regs were never ment to be policed.

Its purpose is to improve  h&s.

The new regs will never be 'policed'. Their are too many relative factors.

All those who went into wfp solely on h&s basis have wasted their money. (Apart from their own saftey, for all aging window cleaners)

All those who think the only way to conform is with wfp are living in too small a bubble.

The regs are not worth getting stressed about, a sole trader window cleaner, using a ladder and scrim will never be 'done', ladders wont be banned, licencing wont make a difference and Nottingham Forrest will never play top flight football again.

[Paul Coleman]

The new regs were never ment to be policed.

Its purpose is to improve  h&s.

The new regs will never be 'policed'. Their are too many relative factors.

All those who went into wfp solely on h&s basis have wasted their money. (Apart from their own saftey, for all aging window cleaners)

All those who think the only way to conform is with wfp are living in too small a bubble.

The regs are not worth getting stressed about, a sole trader window cleaner, using a ladder and scrim will never be 'done', ladders wont be banned, licencing wont make a difference and Nottingham Forrest will never play top flight football again.

The way I understand the regs is that if I'm using some kind of stabiliser ( and I'm including articulated feet rightly or wrongly) then I'm conforming.  I have been using ladder mitts for several years now too as I believe they are a genuine safety device.  I may get a trolley and backpack next Spring to start me off and possibly try to buy containers of pure water.  I would only use them on windows where I would need to scramble up tiles or on leaded light windows to make them easier.  I do agree with Gaza that the HSE should have been more definite about what's OK and what isn't.

[The Bear]

We must understand the HSE does not make definate statements on anything due to the millions of different situations it would have to regulate on.

To me, Shiner seems to have got it sussed.

Another point, those who have spent£1000's on WFP would enforce reg's.

Those who make WFP would enforce reg's.

I wonder why?

The reg's will never be enforced. End of story.

If we continue to use safe practices with a ladder there will never be a problem.

[dai]

I was talking to a painter today. He said that he'd been informed by his trade mag that the new regs would not apply to the likes of him. He said it was ok to do light work on ladders.
We have all seen the regs and I think the words "wherever practicle" hide a mutitude of sins. If you do not have a pole there is no other practicle way of doing the job. The fact that poles exist is besides the point. Any defence lawyer would have a field day if they started prosecuting sole trader window cleaners.
The regs as a whole are too vague. It will take a law lords ruling to make any real sense of them.
I am sure that the manufacturers of WFP systems will dissagree with me. Of course they would wouldn't they?
I am going onto WFP because there is a lot of work out there that can't be done off ladders. The regs are just an excuse I'm giving my customers to switch to WFP and put my prices up.
The new regs have not influenced this decision. DAI

[rosskesava]

Hi Gaza

Ladders are still legal up to 9m and over 6m with secure footings.

The H & S do actually have the rest of industry to concider also.

Also, without meaning to sound sarcastic and I'm being serious, if you think others are working breaking H & S rulings then you should report it to the H & S.

That is the law of the land.

Cheers

[williamx]

Gaza

As a wfp window cleaner (I ALSO CLEAN CLEAN CARPETS IF YOU WANT A QUOTATION) and hopefully a sucessful designer of a new type of wfp trolley system which will be in your stores shortly.
Don't worry about the cleaner who uses ladders because the way forward in this industry is by using a safe and efficent way to clean windows, and the way forward at the moment is via the wfp method.

This can change of course with new technology which comes onto the market so investing into wfp systems could be a bad idea. ( The EC could dictate that all buildings should have ladder ties fixed to buildings so using a ladder is safe and therefore making wfp systems redundant or some other excellent idea).

Untill this happens don't worry about how other people are cleaning their windows because the way the figures are worked out more WINDOW CLEANERS ARE INJURED OR KILLED USING LADDERS THAN ANY OTHER METHOD OF CLEANING WINDOWS.  So don't worry about who is breaking the law, at the end, YOU WILL SURVIVE.

As for the window cleaner who is telling your customes LIES and is trying to take your business away from you then we ALL can do something to help.

WHAT I PROPOSE IS THAT ALL WINDOW CLEANERS NO MATTER WHAT METHOD YOU USE GO WITH GAZZA AND TELL HIS CUSTOMERS PAST AND PRESENT WHAT WE CONSIDER IS THE CORRECT WAY OF DOING BUSINESS AND WHAT IS LAW AND WHAT IS NOT.

I pledge that I will assist any window cleaner who needs help.

William

[rosskesava]

Hi Gaza

more WINDOW CLEANERS ARE INJURED OR KILLED USING LADDERS THAN ANY OTHER METHOD OF CLEANING WINDOWS.

Untill WFP what other method was available for cleaning windows in terms of any type of window cleaning other than cradle, cherry picker or roped access?

In other words, for resindentual window cleaning was the option to turn up  at Mrs Smith's 2 up 2 down with a cherry picker a common occurance?

It's like saying that more motorists are killed in car accidents because they drive cars  than in any other means of motor driven vehicles.

Also, you need to seriously examine as to what you call 'law' is in fact 'law' or not.

The vast majority of window cleaners still use ladders so it is totally obvious that if injuries (or deaths) occur to window cleaners using ladders then as you said, most injuries occur to window cleaners using  ladders.......................

WHAT IS LAW AND WHAT IS NOT.

So what is 'the law'? I wasn't aware that that WAHD was on the statute books? As in it is illegal to go up a ladder.

Gaza, new things take time, maybe in 10 years WFP will be the accepted way but right now at this point in time, it is still new'ish. Just accept that fact and with regards w/c's and accidents, they are way down the list in terms of injuries pro rata per profession who work at height. That is a fact.

We will be up and running with WFP soon and for me, the main reason is that ladders have an inherant risk, but perspective is also important.

Cheers

[Paul Coleman]

We must understand the HSE does not make definate statements on anything due to the millions of different situations it would have to regulate on.

To me, Shiner seems to have got it sussed.

Another point, those who have spent£1000's on WFP would enforce reg's.

Those who make WFP would enforce reg's.

I wonder why?

The reg's will never be enforced. End of story.

If we continue to use safe practices with a ladder there will never be a problem.

Just to clarify.  As my access to water/drainage would be a hassle in my current circumstances (living in a flat), buying the water woiuld be my best bet.  I would make it last a long time as there are very few windows on my round that are potentially unsafe.  Most of those I currently clean with an Unger Plus 4 from the ground or I don't do them.  However, the ordinary extension poles are not as good a job as cleaning manually and, presumably, not as good as WFP.  The only reason I intend to invest in a trolley and backpack (and not till next Spring due to finances) is with the view to them eventually being part of a much bigger toolkit.  When I eventually upgrade to van mount and/or static holding tank, the trolley and backpack will still be useful tools for me.  It's not an either/or situation.

[gaza]

Ross: ACCORDING TO H/S SITE 70 people were killed  from falls from height in the year 2002/3 ,30% were window cleaners and 4000 serious accidents, I take pro rata 30% were window cleaners.

 there is statics and there is statics 3/10 people killed on our roads have been drinking and driving.
so would you rather be the three or the 7 who wernt drinking
 that is the question?
even trhough you know deep down drinking and driving is dangerous.
Iwould like to be in the 7 [strange decision] you  may say but the amount of people whos driving on our roads sober it limits your chance of an accident greatly.

     gaza

[The Bear]

Ross: ACCORDING TO H/S SITE 70 people were killed  from falls from height in the year 2002/3 ,30% were window cleaners and 4000 serious accidents, I take pro rata 30% were window cleaners.

 there is statics and there is statics 3/10 people killed on our roads have been drinking and driving.
so would you rather be the three or the 7 who wernt drinking
 that is the question?
even trhough you know deep down drinking and driving is dangerous.
Iwould like to be in the 7 [strange decision] you  may say but the amount of people whos driving on our roads sober it limits your chance of an accident greatly.

     gaza

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Benjamin Disraeli (1804 - 1881)


If this is true the 30% may represent window cleaners using rope access or cherry pickers. I doubt very much it includes the type of window cleaners doing Mrs Smiths 2 up 2 down

Here's a comment from Ross on the subject from elsewhere, (hope you don't mind Ross)

Hi Simon

If any of us have or cause an accident we could have the full weight of the law on our backs if we haven't followed the rules.

I don't believe that is so. It is quite complex. The mandate that the H & S follow with regards prosecutions is quite detailed and they cannot just make an example of someone as that would show the law to be biased as in this person gets done but not that person.

Prosecutions only occur via the the courts on account of the H & S people is if it is the public interest to do so. That is the only occasion when they act legally through the courts and that is it. It has nothing to do with making examples and the law is not there for that.

To date, for the last 10 years, and I can provide the links, not one self employed window cleaner has been done.

I also agree that some window cleaners, whether knowingly or unknowingly, have little regard for H & S but that most do have a sense of being sensible because it will be them get injured or otherwise should a risk prove a step to far.

The new regs are in the main to stop companies taking chances with employees lives because as a business, a company has a legal obligation for an employees welfare and safety.

As a self employed person, I am solely responsible if I do something stupid. Legally, I would get done for injuring myself and legally also have a claim against myself for failing to look out for my welfare. This is a big problem in a legal sense. How do I simultaneously get done for injuring myself and claim against myself for injuries?

If I cause injury or damage to someone else or their property then that is different. If I do something blatantly stupid then that is different again.

The new regs are confusing for the self employed to say the least as there is another aspect of law called 'accepted practice'. If for 10 years I have been cleaning windows with my ladders without incident then it is a fair assumption I am acting sensibly with regards my welfare. Then mix into that the fact for negligence to be proved the action that caused the accident had to have been know about beforehand but ignored, then you have a minefield legally.

Simply falling from a ladder and stating WAHD does not mean the person will get done. It is more complex than that. Also, with no injury, for the self employed, to state a ladder is being used contrary to the WAHD on the little facts that would be apparent from just witnessing someone up a ladder would be arbitrary to say to least. Just what facts could be ascertained after the person came down the ladder that were in action when that person was up the ladder would be near on impossible. What would happen? The whole area roped off and a copper making sure no went near the scene for days until a H & S officer investigated. How would that be stated in court and how easily would the defense defend it? There would be little or no evidence and from observing it and saying 'well I think' and with no real evidence it would be all heresay.

WAHD is about before the event, not after it unless a company can be proven to be requesting employees or pressuring them to act otherwise. Should an injury occur that is contrary to WAHD then the company will be liable. With companies, failure to act in a certain way is more easily proved because there is a history and records.  For the self employed, it is a case of pressure only to act in a certain way with the promise of what may happen otherwise and that point in WAHD has not been fully addressed.

Still, I take your point I do agree, ladders are dangerous and any legislation that makes that fact more apparent and decreases injury resulting from their use can only be a good thing.

Cheers

Ross

[windows_chepstow]

Bear,

Good post.  Particularly liked the quote - very appropriate.  I've filed it away for 'later use'.

[Thecleanerservice]

I am seriously looking to learn more about WFP systems.  I'm only at stage one.  A mate who has a van system is going to take me with him for a day so I can see it working and try it.  I think it is the way forward for all the reasons you can think of.
I can't see the new Regs being enforced to that degree, not for some long time yet.
I think it's a bit open to interpretation. 
I have one contract (can't say whu) very high profile, the police are on duty at the place when they are in residence...They're building maintenance office said they checked the regs and decided, ladder use is OK as long as you are not up there for more than 10 - 15 minutes!!  where they get that from? As I say open to interpretation.
Just a thought, if all window cleaners had been using WFP systems up till now and someone invented the ladder, I reckon we'd all think "hey this is a good idea I'll get one, it'll come in handy, as long as I'm careful with it".
As I say I don't know much about WFP yet but maybe there will always be a place for ladders too.
Pj

[davidsabishop]

In Bristol the council have already done a swoop and issued warnings

[windows_chepstow]

In Bristol the council have already done a swoop and issued warnings

David,

How did the council do that?  Was this to ALL Bristol window cleaners, or just those that the council subcontract to?

Also, what was the form of the warning?  Have you had one?  If it's a letter could you put it up here, I'd like to see what it said.

[The Bear]

I'd like to see the warnings also.

My guess is it will be to those contracted to the council.

They have every right to stipulate how work is done.

They can't give warnings to other window cleaners who don't work for them.

Again I say dont panic

[petetaylor56]

in our local paper tonight it says a window cleaner fell 40ft through glass area of a library  it doesnt say much about it but i reckon h&s are straight in there just hope the guys not to bad but does not say much

[The Bear]

Most acccidents happen as a result of stupidity.

I would venture that most on this site are ultra careful when working.

[williamx]

The Bear

If you think that accidents happens only because of an act of stupidity, and the person who this happens to is STUPID, then I think you are far wrong.

A accident is something that happens no matter what forward planning you do.

I am sure that in you life-time you have either hurt yourself or someone else or broken something, or some other thing which could be a ACCIDENT.

If this is the case then you must be STUPID like the rest of US.

An accident can happen no matter what you do.

But hurting or killing yourself because you didn't take the SAFE METHOD is really STUPID.