[Derek_Walker]

Carpet cleaners certainly are a negative bunch with very active imaginations. Lets look at this from another perspective, what if this job turns out really well? what if the customer is extremely happy and provides more work? what if it is extremely well organised? what if a group of professional carpet cleaners get to work together and make some money?  etc, etc, etc.

Of course on the other hand what if the world stops turning tomorrow? lol.

[David Ware]

I wish you well to all the people that have tried hard to get this job and for the safe completion of the work. Let us know how it finishes up. My concern of a job of this nature would be the security of my equipment, lock it up.
David Ware 

[Griffus]

As a neutral bystander on this matter I would like to pass comment on the following facts: -
The title of this thread calls out for CC's in the South but makes no mention of CLEAN

My opinion, based on the title is therefore that this is nothing to do with CLEAN.

It would appear from the posts that have since followed that it has everything to do with CLEAN.

 I am curious therefore, why this request has been handled in this way. The following strikes me as odd: -
•   Why CLEAN is not mentioned in the title.
•   Why there is no clarity on whether or not this is open to all, or just CLEAN members.
•   Why is this request at such short notice?

I am even more curious as to: -
•   Who is managing this project?
•   Who has agreed the cleaning spec.?
•   Payment Terms; Who will be paid, how and when?
•   Does the 'Customer' know how many individual companies are to be involved and what H&S measures are to be put in place to help facilitate this?
•   Who from the Customer will oversee and who from the CC’s will be in overall charge, will this person / person’s be hands on or wholly managing?
•   What contingency is in place for no shows and poor performers?

Isn't there a worry from CLEAN's hierarchy that this could be a total disaster? This is a massive project, made extremely complicated by each teams individual working practice plus a whole load of other factors. I understood that the whole point was to raise awareness but more importantly STANDARDS! Maybe this isn't the best way of going about this.

As this is a shout out for help I would assume there are not enough members already and that new members are required. At such short notice how are these member requests to be vetted. Is it simply a case of getting as many members as possible as soon as possible? If so is it not therefore the case that raising industry STANDARDS is not CLEAN's ultimate aim, this is actually gaining members.

Finally, has the work already been secured or is it a possibility based on CLEAN being able to fulfil requirements. Who has agreed rates and isn't the Customer a bit worried that the job isn't going to be done. What is their contingency etc. etc.

[richie]

I POSTED THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE IN REPLY TO A POST MADE BY STEVE BARNETT WHO HAS SINCE REMOVED HIS POST

Steve,
I think you have put your comments across very well.  Without looking back at this whole thread spending hours taking in everything that has been said im going to attempt to answer your post or at least part of it.  

When reading the posts that others have left it is very easy to not fully take in what has been said or fully understanding the post. As i have said a few times now negative posts from others can easily be turned into positive comments.  The way that someone runs a company or organisation may not be what others have in mind and they will voice opinions.  These opinions should be noted and talked about to see if they can work for you.  

If someone like Simon in your opinion has tried to discredit the directors would it not be advisable to simply post a comment saying....Well actually this is how it works or we do this for this reason...  As you stated yourself you expected some negativity and a degree of cynicism.  Myself and others have done this but instead of getting a reply from a director ofall the answers or most have been from this forum members.  It may have been a good idea for a Director of CLEAN to help people more understand what and how things are going to work.  You also said "The people who come on here demanding answers to questions are the same people who can't be bothered to pick up the phone or send an e-mail, as was requested in the launch statement".  Is there any reason why you cant post the information on these forums for all to see.  At least that way many questions may have been answered instead of a heated debate and certain people getting abusive towards others.  

Yes it was myself that posted the comment "if we didn't want negative comments then we shouldn't use an open forum to promote CLEAN".  I stick by that comment but dont see any reason why you would want to stop posting on this or any other forum regarding CLEAN because to some that may seem as if CLEAN has something to hide, which by the way is NOT what im trying to say.

I think that their are quite a few CCs on this and other forums that are interested in knowing how things will work with CLEAN and the answers to any questions that have been asked be that good or bad.  I can understand thatCLEAN is a new project and that it will take time to see how things are going to work out but i think personally that instead of going defensive (which in some respects i can understand why) why doesnt a Director or someone authorised from CLEAN either correct what assumptions have been made or say your comments have been noted and discussed to see if they will work with what we are trying to acieve within CLEAN.  At least if things are done this way everyone that has interest of joining CLEAN or just want to know how things will be worked will be able to see this on a forum.

Anyone or any organisation that is trying to move forward the CC trade and trying to make the consumer more aware of CC i think has to take credit where credit is due and i believe that said people deserve a pat on the back.  I personally do wish CLEAN the best of luck and hope that CLEAN can achieve its goals.  Just because someone is seeing a negative side of things does not mean that they want to see CLEAN get doomed.

Richie.
PS
I hope the above makes sense

[Neil Williams]

I am even more curious as to: -
•   Who is managing this project?
•   Who has agreed the cleaning spec.?
•   Payment Terms; Who will be paid, how and when?
•   Does the 'Customer' know how many individual companies are to be involved and what H&S measures are to be put in place to help facilitate this?
•   Who from the Customer will oversee and who from the CC’s will be in overall charge, will this person / person’s be hands on or wholly managing?
•   What contingency is in place for no shows and poor performers?

Why do you need to know any of this unless you're involved in the job?
I don't stick my nose into how Buck Palace or Parliament gets done so why do those not involved want to know the ins and outs of someone elses job.

[richie]

Ian,
You have made some very good points within your post and i would like to add one to it if i may.

If something were to go wrong on this job lets say a burst pressure hose causing damage to lets say a TV or PC.......or worst case someones portable malfunctions causing the whole premises to burn to the ground.  Who's insurance would the customer claim from?  Would it be from the guy who's portable hose burst / malfunctioned, from Peter who started this post or from CLEAN?

Richie.

[richie]

Neil,
I guess that what Ian has posted is what people would want to know if they had interest in this or any future jobs.  Again with this kind of information some may be put off from contacting to see if their help is required.

Richie.

[Mark Lawrence]

Richie

That was a good communative reply, well done mate for understanding what CLEANs objectives are hoping to achieve. Lets all give it time, its only just been born and it will take time to answer all concerns and build on that to create a great association (hopefully). With regard to all things to do with h & s and insurance etc - that must be taken care of i would imagine - cant see any project of this size going ahead unless it has.

I myself dont know much about the assoc, but i just see it as a positive thing if all cc's can benefit - surely?

Ian

I may be wrong but I dont suspect for a minute that CLEAN will post that sort of information on an open forum - would you expect NCCA to do that or IICRC? of course not. Why dont you just get in touch with CLEAN and ask them?

Mark

[derek west]

go on, i'll have my 2 peneth worth.

first of all i wish clean all the success in the world, it won't effect me if i don't join and if they do it right then i'll join and benefit that way. win win for me really.

i'd of loved to of got TACCA off the ground but with only a few years behind me and bad timing i'm glad i didn't go for it, even though i had some good financial offers of backing from some extremely influential guys in the industry.
not for me as i'm doing just dandy and i like where affordable cleaners is going.
all though i am thinking of changing it to Truckmounter Approved Carpet Cleaning Association.

i think on the whole CLEAN are doing a good job of setting up an organisation that will at the least push the industry forward.

the only down side to CLEAN are......
there reluctancy to be open about everything by answering questions in a positive professional manner. a new organisation needs to be positive, by answering possible future members concerns. this is a big forum and to turn your nose up to it just cos of a few doubters is in my opinion, unbelievable. you can learn and prosper from doubters if you deal with them in the right manner

Q&A is forward thinking, its the only way to drive forward, big companies use Q&A not just in the board room but with staff and even customers.
forums like this are a fantastic way of getting new ideas and diversifying away from your own way of thinking.which can sometimes be blinkered.
my only other concern is anyone can join CLEAN as long as they have passed the test and got insurance, hmmmmm sounds familiar, i really think serious organisations should have a minimum equipment standard for there own good as well as the customer, to pull up to number 22 jones street and be proudly showing off my CLEAN badge while next door at number 24 joe bloggs turns up with his rug doctor and his CLEAN logo on the side of his H reg escort estate would really pee me off.
just my thoughts there guys, don't take them to heart.
and hopefully i'll be paying the membership fee and joining in the future, good luck with the job, hope it all goes swimmingly.
6 posts while typing this, how long was i on the phone for

[Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)]

Guys

I have decided to delete my post as it was inflammatory and written out of frustration.

If you want more information on CLEAN and how to join please contact us or attend CCDO where we will have a stand.

Simon

If you read my post before I deleted it then I apologise for how some of it was worded, however, most of my points I stand by. If you didn't read it, then by all means carry on criticising us, as they say - all publicity is good publicity, no matter how negative.

Ian

I don't know you and with the greatest respect you can't possibly expect answers to those questions on an open forum, especially as you are not even involved in the job.

Derek

Yes there will be a minimum requirement in terms of equipment.

Regards

Steve Barnett
C.L.E.A.N President

[Tony Gill Carpet Smart]

Hi Steve the only reason people are posting on this forum is because the request was posted on here by Pete and also about the launch of Clean and I think Clean could do their cause a lot of good by trying to answer questions put by cc's who are the people you want to get interested in Clean to get them to become members, you will always get the ones who want to knock you just ignore them.   Good luck m8 hope I might be able to make ccdo

Cheers Tony

[Tony Gill Carpet Smart]

Clinton
Just cos you got new van & machine  lol

Tony

[fitz2kleen]

hmmmmm , children in the playground still at it i see.
maybe ill come back in a few weeks when the wars over.

[Simon Gerrard]

Steve,

I hadn't read you post, but even if I had I wouldn't have taken offence for as you well know I have been an outspoken critic, not of the CLEAN project in total but the way that it has been gone about and fair dinkum, if you dish it out, so you should be prepared to take the flack that comes your way by way of reply, and I accept that absolutely.

What I think is a real shame is that you have missed a golden opportunity to start an association based on what the membership want from an association and not what a secretive committee of self appointed people THINK the membership want. There has been no outside consultation with the carpet cleaning fraternity, just a continuous wall of silence. Until, that is, your communications director said on this forum, 'The association is NOT about its members, it is about its CUSTOMERS' What kind of an association is that?  Associations don't have customers, they have members. So if Clean has customers then it cannot be an association, it's a franchise operation, so why not come out and say so.
And as if to cement that point I was then sent text of an email allegedly from one senior member of the CLEAN team to others end with words to the effect of, 'We should make a killing!' So is it not then the case that you sign up new members who then have to have minimum standards of equipment and then have to do all the CLEAN training courses so that they can then carry out CLEAN jobs (if any should come their way) and CLEAN makes a profit on each and everyone one of them. Now, in as many words that is what I was told this is about, a money making scheme and hence my cynicism. By the way there is nothing wrong with all of the above as long as you give it the proper label, that of a franchise operation and NOT an association, at least then people know what they are signing up to. Maybe this explains all the secrecy.

I don't want this to become personal, Steve, if you want the truth, the best thing that has happened to CLEAN so far is you taking it over, but if you're not prepared to address people concerns in an open and frank manner and actually engage with the very people you hope will populate CLEAN then you might as well stick to your day job.

You know just because I disagree with what you are doing and the way you are going about it, doesn't make me wrong to say what I think. And if the project is so full of virtue then it will withstand any amount of criticism from a cynical old git like me who will be only too please to stand up and give you the hearty applause you will deserve if you prove me wrong.

Simon

[Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)]

Hi Simon

Thanks for your reply and for the benefit of others reading your post we should agree that I have already addressed the alleged e-mail that you refer to and that I have suggested that you copy it to me, as it has most certainly NOT come from the board of directors of CLEAN that now exists.

Also for the benefit of others I have copied and pasted below some of the replies I gave you on Truckmounters as they answer some of the concerns you have raised in you post above.

"Unlike the NCCA, the focus of CLEAN is all about educating the end user about the need for regular cleaning and maintenance, if we can raise the awareness of even an extra 1% of the public it would make a huge difference to all aspects of the carpet cleaning industry - pie in the sky ?, maybe, but somebody has to try however long it takes. We are so far behind the USA in terms of how people view the need for carpet cleaning.

If this philosophy of focusing on the end user rather than the members means we fall outside the parameters of an "association" then so be it. Equally we are long way from being labelled as a franchise.

There will be a entry training course and a minimum equipment requirement.  As for work being promised, well no such promises are being made, however members will benefit from contracts that we are actively sourcing.

We are not trying to be another NCCA, why would we ?, they already exist. This is new territory and cynicism is to be expected, but we are pushing on with it and will stick to the principles we have set out for it. Time will tell if we have made the right decisions and if the members will benefit from our efforts. I'm sure some people will think that this a holier than thou attitude which is simply masking a money-making scheme to benefit the organisers, but nothing could be further from the truth. That being said, actions speak louder than words, so watch this space.

I can fully appreciate that there are still concerns and questions unanswered and I hope that we can put our message across in full come April.

This will be a huge challenge for us to establish CLEAN within the industry but I believe the time is right. I am sure mistakes will be made along the way but we are in this for the long haul."

As for answering questions on the forums, I am sure you will agree it would be a futile task. You only have to read some of the questions posed to realise that I would have to be on-line day and night.

Without being over-dramatic, even if I promised to revolutionise the carpet cleaning industry overnight and assured prospective members that they would earn a thousand pounds a week each, someone would still come back with another batch of "what ifs" and "I am concerned about" posts.

On top of that, typed responses on forums tend to be read out of context - I will gladly stand in front of 100 people at CCDO in april and explain what CLEAN is about, rather than have our integrity questioned in a post from someone who hides their identity or posts under an assumed name to stir up trouble.

CLEAN cannot be all things to all men. Guys with 20 plus years experience and huge database of clients, can rightly ask "whats in it for me" and truthfully the answer would have to be - not much.

However, there is a huge middle area of carpet cleaners who don't fit this profile, indeed many of them do not use forums at all, these are the people who will probably benefit most from being a part of our association.

To repeat myself, our main focus is the end user, the prospective client - without raising their awareness we only have a small piece of the pie to share amongst ourselves.

Those that want to join will benefit - those that don't will still benefit if we achieve what we have set out to - OR we can all keep coming on here asking if anyone else is quiet at the moment, or how the client has never heard of the NCCA, or how we don't get any work from being a member of the NCCA (not that they have ever said that they will gain work for their members)

We don't have to fall out over this Simon, I've got broad shoulders too and I can accept criticism up to the point when it gets vindictive.

However, you are a big player in the carpet cleaning world and your words carry weight - I would simply ask that you bear that in mind when posting on here, as the words you use at times seem to undermine what we are trying to achieve.

Anytime you want a chat, feel free to call - I'm not hard to find.

Steve

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

There are times when the talking has to be converted into action and that is what we at CLEAN are doing.

A lot of work is going on in the background to prepare for the launch and I know many of you have already expressed interest in becoming members.

There will always be leaders, whether you choose to follow them is entirely up to you.

Cheers

Doug

[Mark Lawrence]

Steve,

...I was then sent text of an email allegedly from one senior member of the CLEAN team to others end with words to the effect of, 'We should make a killing!'

Simon

So that's just hearsay then? If this cant be proven then I would describe this as a very very unsavoury comment indeed from Simon.

Mark

[Simon Gerrard]

Steve,

Thanks for your reply.
We all focus on the end user, it's called marketing and the aim of doing good marketing is to encourage the end user to come our way and not the way of our competitors. So there is nothing new in what you are doing that any other carpet cleaning company isn't already doing. The problem you've got is that if your 'educating' results in a sale and you then pass that work on to a local member, who are all equipped to a certain standard, trained to a certain standard as so are qualified to carry out the work. That's all fine. The problem is that people join association on the basis of 'what's in it for me' (either financially or in extra kudos with prospective clients) and for no other reason. People leave associations because they don't think they get enough back to justify their membership fee. Finding that other people have got work from CLEAN but not me will cause that very disgruntlement and crys of 'not fair' will quickly follow and membership renewal will become based on whether or not they were one of the winners or one of the losers and that's not decrying your best efforts, that is simply the reality that awaits you if you make CLEAN an organisation that generates work for its members because the only way it can work and you keep your members is if EVERYONE gets work and I would suggest that is nigh on impossible.

The goal of educating the public is a good one and is easily the most pressing matter confronting the carpet cleaning business in this country, but in my view you are going about it in entirely the wrong way and a lot of people who really can't afford it are going to have coughed up a lot of money for potentially nothing.

Simon

[Ian Gourlay]

I have not read everything on CLEAN as I am involved in three projects at present.

Simon I remember years ago on Clean it Up you wanted to start somthing similiar.

If I remember correctley talk of TV Advertising etc.

As I have said not read all criteria but like ideas of diffrent grades. Obviously Internet will be used . I believe Pete is a good Salesperson

Do not think I know Andrew.

Dougs a good Guy

So to me looks ok. I doubt if I will join as I am travelling in a diffrent direction and I never have been a joiner.

I think we should wish them all well.

[Art]

Simon,

 That's a couple of times now i've read people saying that you tried to start something similar. Might of been before my time on here.
I'm curious so would you like to enlighten me. Apoliges if you have mentioned it on one of your long posts on this thread, as i haven't read them all.

Thanks in advance.

Arthur