[Neil Williams]

valid questions put forward by people like Karen Waterworth

And whilst on the subject of hiding things......who exactly is Karen Waterworth?
No details under the profile and 7 posts of which 6 have been anti CLEAN and the other isn't exactly un-related either.
See, the thing is Simon, that whilst I was keeping an open mind on the CLEAN set-up I have edged a lot more closer to them thanks to a small group who (may or may not be a small group amongst themselves) who seem hell bent on doing everything possible to stop this organisation.

[Tony Gill Carpet Smart]

Glynn's wife who along with Simon runs Truckmount forum.

Tony

[Simon Gerrard]

Steve,
Hang on a second here, you're setting out to start a new association and expecting people to part with quite a lot of hard earned money and join it and yet you only want to answer the questions that you want to answer and duck all the really difficult questions which you clearly want to avoid.
Moreover, you and others involved in CLEAN have systematically used these forums to promote CLEAN in any which way you can, so I think it is a bit rich that you and your fellow cohorts are doing their utmost to shut me up because you don't want someone like me asking awkward questions. The reality is, I'm doing you a favour, I'm saving you from taking all of those phone calls because in one foul swoop you can explain to the entire CIU audience what CLEAN is all about and answer some of the questions put to you, like the ones from Karen Waterworth which I'm sure are questions on the lips of many.
Don't you see, it is absolutely incredulous that the only way a prospective member can get his or her questions / concerns about CLEAN answered is either by paying £35 to attend the CCDO, or in a phone call, aren't you going to produce a written prospectus, don't you think the people who you want to speculate £235 on what is a new association that can promise them nothing by way of a return are entitled to know exactly what they are signing up to? IF the CLEAN project is so well thought out and so full of virtue, then why are you running scared of the questions. You should be welcoming the questions, not ducking them.

Believe it or not, Steve, I wish I could support you because I believe passionately in this business which has given me so much. You and others may find it convenient to label me an 'upstart' or 'troublemaker' or any one of innumerable expletives because that is the quick and easy. But let me ask you this, why I am spending so much of my time on this? I'm not making money out of it, clearly not earning any new friends or admirers by doing it, clearly the opposite, or maybe I'm just a bitter twisted old man that's a screw or two lose who aspires to be the most hated man in carpet cleaning, or just maybe... (well, I'll let you make you're own mind up about that.)


Simon

[Art]

Simon,

 A fellow cohort i'm not and i don't want to shut you up.

 I'm merely curious to find out your motives for all the negative posts.

It doesn't look like your interested in joining CLEAN, so what's the real reasons for the probing?

I have no intention of joining clean myself, but the guys involved imo are all decent people.

Arthur

[Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)]

Simon

I haven't labelled you as anything, I respect you and I believe you respect me, so we all know where we stand.

To repeat myself, we issued a statement on this forum and others inviting people to phone or e-mail for more information - what could be simpler than that and as I said before we have had many enquiries from interested parties.

As for parting with a lot of hard-earned money it's £ 200 no vat, people waste more than that every month on advertising and to repeat myself you don't have to pay to attend CCDO to find out more information - what is so incredulous about making a phone call ?

I'm not trying to shut you up at all, you are entitled to your opinion, in fact you are doing me a favour because all publicity is good publicity, no matter how negative.

You have to pay £ 200 + vat to join the NCCA and you get no promise of anything in return for that either.

You're not the only person that is passionate about this industry, we are too, which is why we are trying to do something positive to support it. I would have thought you would be pleased, instead you label us as "cohorts" and suggest that we have dreamed this up in 5 minutes in "smoke-filled rooms".

I've invited you to phone us on more than one occasion but you still keep coming back at me with another post telling me what you think I should and shouldn't be doing.

CLEAN is pushing ahead with or without your support and trust me when I tell you that I wish it was with your support.

Steve

[Karen Waterworth]

What am I hiding???

Karen Waterworth is 5 ft 3" born in Leyland, married to Glynn Waterworth, two children one grandchild, company name Leyland Cleaning Services Ltd, I have been working with Glynn for 21 years.
 
I have asked 3 questions because i would like to know the answer.
The way i have read the posts on the board, leads me to think that maybe CLEAN is likely to be more of a company that will get big jobs under the company name of CLEAN and then ask for independent companies to do the work for them (sub contacting). I think that is a business relationship.
My idea of an association within the cc world, is that your business has agreed to a set of standards and exams, which the public will trust and if you are a member you can advertise that logo you will then quote and do the work under your own name and the payment is made to you.  
Either way both are a good idea because CLEAN can have a data base of cleaning companies that are willing and able to do the work for them and the companies will make money on jobs that they did not think they could do. I think to go on list like that it should be free but you should have to prove to CLEAN that you do work to set standards.
If it's a association again its a good idea because the more the public know about carpet cleaning and the benefits the better, that you should pay a membership for because your paying for advertising, knowledge training etc.
I am not against CLEAN i just would like to know what it is and yes i know i will have to wait until April or ring up but i have put my question on here sorry for that if it has upset some people forgive me...............
Anyway good luck to all cc'c out there what ever you are doing.  

[Simon Gerrard]

Steve,

If you want my support then come clean about CLEAN. Don't you see what is so damaging here is your obvious reluctance to answer some pretty basic questions about the way CLEAN will operate. Karen Waterworth has asked you some very direct and very prevalent questions about how CLEAN originated jobs are handled between the Association and the member. If you don't know the answer to those questions then who in your organisation does?
You seem to object to anyone asking you anything, yet all you are offering people is the promise of some as yet unstated goal and expect them to blindly sign up willy nilly.
You are asking for £235 membership fee on a brand new association with no track record and are therefore in no position to promise anyone anything other than that they may be throwing their hard earned down the gutter because you cannot even tell them that idea of yours will actually work, so don't you think the people willing to hedge their bets and go with you are entitled to some sort of open and honest disclosure of what CLEAN is all about? Why will you only disclose that information via phone or email, surely this is an opportunity to tell the carpet cleaning world what a great idea this is and have people tripping over themselves trying to join. I just can't see the logic in secrecy, it doesn't make any form of sense. You and your followers claim that it is me that is trying to discredit your organisation when in fact all I and others have done is ask perfectly legitimate questions which you then sidestep, and I'm doing the discrediting?

Simon

[Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)]

Hi Karen

Firstly, I must apologise for not replying sooner, I must have missed your original question.

Your assessment of CLEAN is a fair one. In the first instance our priority is to raise awareness for the need of carpet cleaning with the public and on that basis the name CLEAN will become linked with that aim. It won't be an easy task and it won't happen overnight, but one of the repeated criticisms of other trade associations is that no-one has heard of them. We aim to change that, so yes a prospective member can use the CLEAN logo to promote their business and win work independantly when they are contacted by a client from their free listing on our website.

In addition to that we are actively seeking contracts as CLEAN which we will then call upon the network of members to service, depending on where in the country it is.

As I've said before, if this means we are not an association in the traditional meaning, then so be it - we are deliberately trying to do something different.

I am sure the guys that worked on the ship yesterday will confirm that it was hard work but well paid.

Again apologies that I didn't reply sooner.

Steve

[Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)]

Simon

I have just answered Karen, I posted it before seeing your last post.

For the umpteenth time it's not a secret !

Come to think of it Simon I don't remember you ever asking me a question on here, you just keep barking at me !


Steve

[derek west]

steve
so does CLEAN set the pay rate?, take it or leave it kind of thing on these contracts. if so i would find that quite unfair if working along side a portable. not because i think i'm better than a portable but because they get free electric where as i pay for my fuel.

[Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)]

Derek

Yes we set the rate, the point you raise didn't arise yesterday because everyone used portables.

As for having to pay for your own fuel - well I don't see much difference between that and the fact that some guys yesterday drove 10 miles to the job while others drove 75 miles - we all have expenses that we incur when working.

Steve

PS: glad to hear you got your pump sorted

[Simon Gerrard]

Steve,

OK, here is a question. Now that you have finally opened up and admitted that CLEAN is far more of a franchise operation that it is an Association can you please answer these questions which I am sure will be of interest to others:

So, you negotiate these contracts:
1) Does clean make a profit on each and every job?
2) How is CLEAN going to ensure that all members, regardless of where they are in the country get a share of the work and therefore a return on their investment, please be specific?
3) If some members get work and others don't, will you refund the losers membership fees or is that just tough?
4) If you are trading your services, or your members services on the open market, aren't you in actual fact either a franchise or a network and if so why don't you set yourself up as that in the first place?
5) And if you are in actual fact a franchise or network why are you charging £235 for people to join when all you are doing is selling their services and making a profit from them?
6) I have sub-contractors working for me but I don't charge them to be on my database, why are you?
7) What hourly rate will your members be getting?

I hope you will be honest and open with your replies then finally we can all get to grips with what CLEAN is, or is NOT.

Simon

[Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)]

Simon

First of all, I haven't admitted that CLEAN is a franchise operation, they are your words not mine.

Let me answer the rest of your questions as honestly as I can, but please bear in mind that despite nearly 18 months of planning we have only been launched for 2 weeks - nothing is set in stone and any companies procedures need some tweaking in the early stages.

1. CLEAN is a non-profit making organisation. The job price yesterday was shared evenly among the workers less the cost of pre-spray, rinse solution, plug adaptors etc which we provided.

2. We do not and cannot guarantee that every member will benefit from working on CLEAN jobs, it depends where they are in the country and where the project is. However, at least we are trying to get contracts which is more than other associations do (not that they have ever claimed to offer this to their members)

3. No we won't refund membership fees, just as the NCCA don't if you don't get any enquiries from their website. Do Yellow Pages give you a refund if you don't get any work from your advert with them ?

4. You can call us any name you like Simon, I don't see the relevancy of the question. We are certainly not a franchise, if you prefer to call us a network then that's your choice.

5. We are charging £ 200 membership plus £ 35 entrance exam fee. We are not making a profit from anyone. Any business or association has running costs. The prospective member gets free promotional items and a free listing on the members page of our website, which I think I am right in saying costs £ 75 + vat with the NCCA (but I stand to be corrected)

6. I've just answered that.

7. Thats really none of your business Simon.



I presume now that I have answered the questions that you posed Simon you will give us all a break from your relentless badgering and criticism - or is that just wishful thinking on my part ?


Thats all from me for one day, I've got my own business to look after and a family, I will check in tomorrow to see what else you are going to accuse of us.


Steve

[derek west]

cheers for the answer steve, appreciate  it. don't agree with it, but thats my prob not yours.

must admit, very impressive getting the big job you guys got.

trouble for me is, i don't want people getting me work and telling me how much to earn, i want my organisation to generate me leads through education and "in your face" marketting. that way i can carry on being self employed which is what we all truly want.

personally i think clean are overcomplicating a simple solution by trying to do too  much, i actually heard you were thinking of providing your own brand of chems too, now that really can't be good for the industry.

when someone sets up a simple organisation that simply advertises a "standard" of cleaning to the public, with a contact website where they find a qualified cleaner then i'm in.

anyway, thats what i want. and therefore CLEAN is not for me, but that doesn't stop me from wishing you well and if you can get jobs like the last one then i'm sure you guys will be fine. all the best.

[Simon Gerrard]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the replies.
I have to totally disagree that question 7 (what hourly rate will members be getting) is none of my business. I like many others am a prospective member and how much I might earn per hour is upper most in my mind when deciding whether or not I would want to take on CLEAN work anf therefore shell out £235 to become a member and I would imagine there would be many others wanting to know the answer to that question.

Simon

[Neil Williams]

(1) i don't want people getting me work and telling me how much to earn,
(2) i actually heard you were thinking of providing your own brand of chems too,

(1) So if I go out and price up let's say a Premier Inn at £1600  and they want it all done in one day, is it so wrong to put it around that I need four carpet cleaners for 5 hours and I'll give them £400 each. It would be totally impracticable and suicidal to invite the '4' carpet cleaners to all go and have a look and submit prices of £250 £350 £400 and £600. What's going to happen when each finds out what the other got for doing the same amount of work.

(2) Same as above because someone has to make a decision on continuity, not having one using MS another Double Clean and some smart allic with Ultrapac Renovate.

I really think some are trying to find fault just for the sake of finding fault.

[Mark Lawrence]

I think its ludricous to expect an association to advertise prices anywhere - especially on an open forum. Each job has its own merits/costs and would differ everytime anyway. How bizzarre. So I would re-inforce what has been said - it has nothing to do with you.

Also like has been stated many many times already, the fee is £200 - perhaps you have a problem with understanding this Simon?

Fishing for prices (pardon the pun) is so obvious too, as we all know that you work on ships and would value this info very much.

Also, why state that you are a prospective member of CLEAN when you have made it very clear that you dont want anything to do with it - apart from run it down...I wonder why.

Mark

Guys - good luck with CLEAN!

[craigp]

Simon if you think CLEAN is a franchise then you don't know what a franchise is.

CLEAN is not an association more an 'organisation' if you insist on labeling it.

there is no promise of work! you got to get your own, if your offered its a bonus and thats more than NCCA offers.

I know these things becaused I asked, there was no secrets, pick up the phone an ask.

PS. I went on the ship job it went very well, and was well organised, the pay was good.

I did not have to join and have not been asked to, maybe in the future members will get first shout, thats fair enough. Dont know if I'l join or not.

I understand theres other bigger ships in the offing.

[Karen Waterworth]

(1) i don't want people getting me work and telling me how much to earn,
(2) i actually heard you were thinking of providing your own brand of chems too,

(1) So if I go out and price up let's say a Premier Inn at £1600  and they want it all done in one day, is it so wrong to put it around that I need four carpet cleaners for 5 hours and I'll give them £400 each. It would be totally impracticable and suicidal to invite the '4' carpet cleaners to all go and have a look and submit prices of £250 £350 £400 and £600. What's going to happen when each finds out what the other got for doing the same amount of work.

(2) Same as above because someone has to make a decision on continuity, not having one using MS another Double Clean and some smart allic with Ultrapac Renovate.

I really think some are trying to find fault just for the sake of finding fault.

So if i went to price up lets say a holiday inn @ £1600 and they want it all done in one day, is it so wrong to put it around that I need four carpet cleaners for 5 hours and I'll give them £200 each that leave me with £800 (cos i am a Ltd company and i pay myself a wage of £800 per day that week and (omg no profit in the job) oh thats a good thing no corp tax

No i can find no fault with this, i think it's a good business to be in. What should i call myself??

[Neil Williams]

What are you on about?
Other than trying to re-worrd what I wrote to justify.....let me guess