[The Bear]

if you carnt sleep get up and do something,instead of lying there and worrying,
its the worry that gets you not the lack of sleep.
           Baltasar Gracian

   gaza 2005

Excelent quote.

Sorry if i was a bit off just keep going, the cowboys wont last.

[g_griffin]

I`d be more disappointed in the customer for cancelling rather than the new WC`er. Then you  realise that you`re better off without customers like that.

                              Gerry.

[Marc's on the Glass, LLC]

Hey Gaza...

I can understand your frustration.  If this WC is giving prices a lot lower than yours so he can get the customers, he really isn't much of a threat.  We all know what we make and what we need in order to get by.  These guys who come around with such tactics rarely succeed.

I think the best advice given was from Ian Giles.  Within that letter, you can provide your credentials for being on the up and up of things.  Like, ladder safety; insurance; business licence and the like.  Also, if he is cheating the system (no insurance, licence, etc...) I would report it too.

No offense to anyone, but if I knew someone was intentionally poaching my customers and he isn't straight with the laws, I would have the authorities involved.  Most of us have worked too hard to build a legitimate, successful business, just to have it undermined by someone who cheats the system.

On the other hand, I encourage good relations with other WC's who have a straight, legal business.  There are a couple I know in my area who I have given work to because it was in an area that I don't work in.  When we see each other in areas we both compete in, we have some laughs and move on.

[Paul Coleman]

Hey Gaza...

I can understand your frustration.  If this WC is giving prices a lot lower than yours so he can get the customers, he really isn't much of a threat.  We all know what we make and what we need in order to get by.  These guys who come around with such tactics rarely succeed.

I think the best advice given was from Ian Giles.  Within that letter, you can provide your credentials for being on the up and up of things.  Like, ladder safety; insurance; business licence and the like.  Also, if he is cheating the system (no insurance, licence, etc...) I would report it too.

No offense to anyone, but if I knew someone was intentionally poaching my customers and he isn't straight with the laws, I would have the authorities involved.  Most of us have worked too hard to build a legitimate, successful business, just to have it undermined by someone who cheats the system.

On the other hand, I encourage good relations with other WC's who have a straight, legal business.  There are a couple I know in my area who I have given work to because it was in an area that I don't work in.  When we see each other in areas we both compete in, we have some laughs and move on.

I was just wondering how you can tell if someone is cheating the system or not though.  The price they charge may be an indicator but not necessarily so.  When someone first starts, they are often not aware of the full costs of being self-employed and quote accordingly.  That was so wiith me.  I had very low outgoings in those days.  I still find it hard to believe what I used to charge back in 1991/92.  Those charges were not made through cheating the system.  They were made out of ignorance.

[jsm]

no such thing as "your patch" business is business

sorry to say - but the above is true  it's the customer's that decides who cleanes their windows . If you do a good job and they like you you have no worries I think .

[DASERVICES]

  In Stirlingshire the council have a good system in place, all window cleaners
  need to carry a licence. To obtain this you are checked to see if you have
  no criminal record and also require insurance.

  This works a treat as when you show this to new customers who think your
  prices are too high I just show my ID and they then they change their mind.
  I then explain that anyone who comes knocking at their door trying to
  undercharge me they must request their ID. If the guy has no ID then
  he must have some criminal recored ( maybe ).

  Works a treat as I know there are cleaners on my patch that do not have
  this, but my customers have often told me even though I am pricy they
  prefer someone who they can trust. Too a point my name is passed around
  which is good to know that my customers value me.

 
 

[baldeagle]

Don't worry, most customers are loyal, and as someone else has said, the few that drop off probably ain't worth it, or will come back "to the fold", eventually.

How many times have you tried a new pub, club, shop or whatever, just because they have what appears to be a wonderful introductory offer, only to go back to the "devil you know"?

As a relative newbie, with only 5/6 months or so of service, I must say that I've found most customers are very loyal to their window cleaner.

And, may I say, reading some of the things on this forum, more loyal than some window cleaners are to them!

Don't worry about what might happen - sort it out when it does, if it does!

Baldeagle in Staffordshire

[Paul Coleman]

  In Stirlingshire the council have a good system in place, all window cleaners
  need to carry a licence. To obtain this you are checked to see if you have
  no criminal record and also require insurance.

  This works a treat as when you show this to new customers who think your
  prices are too high I just show my ID and they then they change their mind.
  I then explain that anyone who comes knocking at their door trying to
  undercharge me they must request their ID. If the guy has no ID then
  he must have some criminal recored ( maybe ).

  Works a treat as I know there are cleaners on my patch that do not have
  this, but my customers have often told me even though I am pricy they
  prefer someone who they can trust. Too a point my name is passed around
  which is good to know that my customers value me.

 
 

Sounds great <sarcasm>.  I would lose all the business I've built up over the years because of a couple of silly things I got caught for nearly 30 years ago as a teenager.  Wow.  Terrific.

[windows_chepstow]

  In Stirlingshire the council have a good system in place, all window cleaners
  need to carry a licence. To obtain this you are checked to see if you have
  no criminal record and also require insurance.

  This works a treat as when you show this to new customers who think your
  prices are too high I just show my ID and they then they change their mind.
  I then explain that anyone who comes knocking at their door trying to
  undercharge me they must request their ID. If the guy has no ID then
  he must have some criminal recored ( maybe ).

  Works a treat as I know there are cleaners on my patch that do not have
  this, but my customers have often told me even though I am pricy they
  prefer someone who they can trust. Too a point my name is passed around
  which is good to know that my customers value me.

 
 

Sounds great <sarcasm>.  I would lose all the business I've built up over the years because of a couple of silly things I got caught for nearly 30 years ago as a teenager.  Wow.  Terrific.

Shiner, I don't think that would be the case.  Most convictions are 'spent' after five years and 'removed from file'.  It comes under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act which is meant to protect people, like yourself, who may have gotten into trouble in the exhuberance of their youth.

How do you think I know a little about it.

[gaza]

hi forum: it gets even worse,lost 31 customers today only 3 weeks behind in w/c ,spoke to the guy whos taken my work.
How  KEPT MY HANDS OF HIM I will never know 1-0 to the forum
you were all right who told me to smile and be polite.at least Im going home to my family tonight instead of them coming to visit me
This guy seems an allright guy,wfpoler,although he has used ladders, 4 lads working together. hes been wfp for quite a while
by the sound of it,and is trying to expand his round [carnt fault]
reconds he can make a living at 3.50p for 6/7 windows and 2 doors that less than 50p a window..I was making 60p a window when I decided to increase the price. 50p 3 year rise + 50p for materials, about 65p a window.

SOME OF THESE CUSTOMERS HAVE BEEN WITH ME FROM DAY ONE
old people included [ who I did little extras for [no more Mr nice guy for me]

Then I found out he doesnt have to pay for his water gets it from a large drug company for a few squid  for 1000 litres,so he has no further cost unlike myself [resin]
Hes been canvasing for a few days so havent been able to work out how much damage hes done.
When I told him he has done even more damage than the damage he had all ready done, because Ididnt know where he had canvassed,and that I would be doing windows were he had been so to his credit he gave me the nos he had picked up[just to rub salt into the wounds] I had done these two weeks ago with wfp,and after spending time explaining wfp to them [double whammy] so its price,not my work thats doing it for me[some of these owe me money so should be able to put the customers on a guilt trip] BOY GOING TO LOVE SEING THEIR FACES
[2 FACED]                                                                             GAZA  ;DING AGAIN WICKED THOUGHTS RUNNING TROUGH MY HEAD.

THERES MORE:had a full HS CHECK TODAY:
I was working at the back of a house,when a kitchen fitter decided to bring out his transformer and me not seeing what he was doing [cus he was behind me] plugged it in.just then his forman came around saw me working away.the guy had gone back inside to turn it on[apparently] so water was dripping on to the cable atleast.the forman went ape at me. I smiled at him, christ me smile twice in one day  THE DAY IM HAVING MUST BE GOING SOFT FORUM 2 GAZA 0

The guy blamed me as well,he asked if I had a buiss card to which I gave him ,nowing this may go further I later got their buiss address as well of my customer.

Saw this guy later when working across the street and youve guessed it hs was with him. Must have passed my test cus they never asked me any questions [found out later by this jobs worth] they had been to their site office on an inspection.[PHEW]

 KEEP YOU INFORMED ON THIS EPIC

quote to the h s e : if all the power went to the powerfull
and nothing was left to the poor
then surley
this world would be upside down for sure.
QUOTE GAZA JUNE 2005

[Paul Coleman]

  In Stirlingshire the council have a good system in place, all window cleaners
  need to carry a licence. To obtain this you are checked to see if you have
  no criminal record and also require insurance.

  This works a treat as when you show this to new customers who think your
  prices are too high I just show my ID and they then they change their mind.
  I then explain that anyone who comes knocking at their door trying to
  undercharge me they must request their ID. If the guy has no ID then
  he must have some criminal recored ( maybe ).

  Works a treat as I know there are cleaners on my patch that do not have
  this, but my customers have often told me even though I am pricy they
  prefer someone who they can trust. Too a point my name is passed around
  which is good to know that my customers value me.

 
 

Sounds great <sarcasm>.  I would lose all the business I've built up over the years because of a couple of silly things I got caught for nearly 30 years ago as a teenager.  Wow.  Terrific.

Shiner, I don't think that would be the case.  Most convictions are 'spent' after five years and 'removed from file'.  It comes under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act which is meant to protect people, like yourself, who may have gotten into trouble in the exhuberance of their youth.

How do you think I know a little about it.

Sure thing.  I would probably not be obliged to declare them under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act.  However, many jobs involving working with people are usually exempt from the Act.  It depends which view was taken.  It could be argued that I might be working inside peoples' homes and therefore the act would not apply.

[steve k]

regarding peoples concerns about a police record.
You do not have to declare any convictions considered spent under the rehabilitation of offenders act unless you intend working in an environment where your past offence(s) are deemed to make you a risk to vulnerable people(care workers/doctors etc) or where there is access to drugs(doctors/vets/pharmacists etc) et or large amounts of other peoples cash...in these cases you would have to declare all offences whether spent or not. You do not have a choice. They will come up on your CRB certificate.
Also, certain offences are NEVER considered spent and anyone who has committed these offences would have them detailed on the copy of the CRB certificate sent to them and the copy sent to applying employer/authority.
All checks in England are carried out by the Criminal Records Bureau (CRB) and the employer/authority asking you to complete such a form has to make it clear to the applicant if they need to declare ALL offences and the reason why ie: nature of employment- or if they are allowed to not declare offences which are spent.
I was responsible in my last position for countersigning CRB applications for social workers - an occupation where no offence is considered spent and has to be declared- and quite a few applicants who had committed petty misdemeanours in their youth or substantial time past, were surprised to see that the offences were not listed on their CRB certificate.
The local police force of the area in which the crime was committed has responsibility for deciding if the offence is relevant to the post applied for, taking into account the relevance of the offence, the age of the person when offence was committed and if any repeat patterns of offending are obvious.

If there was a scenario introduced in the UK where window cleaners had to apply for a CRB (exactly the same as taxi drivers incidentally) then I could imagine a person with a recent conviction(s)  for burglary, theft, violence would not be granted a licence until a certain period of conviction free rehabilitation time had taken place.

[williamx]

I would say no because you are not being offered a job by NFMWGC and I don't think that they can do a records check.

[rosskesava]

Hi Gaza

I was working at the back of a house,when a kitchen fitter decided to bring out his transformer and me not seeing what he was doing [cus he was behind me] plugged it in.just then his forman came around saw me working away.the guy had gone back inside to turn it on[apparently] so water was dripping on to the cable atleast

Pure water does not conduct electricity and the reason for the transformer is so that the voltage is 110 volts which is a lot lot safer than 240 anyway. On top of that, those 110V transformers are made to a specification that takes into account splashes of water and the worker should have been trained to look out for potential hazards.

As for blame and all that stuff, I'd have told the foreman to go and do something unpleasant to himself. Nothing will come of it. What's he or his company likely to do? Cause an enquiry to be set up just for that incident when no injury or otherwise has happened? All that will happen is it will get logged in a safety report somewhere to be used as a statistic. Providing of course, that the foreman reports to the proper authorities and then his part and his workers part in it will also get looked into.

Also, with regards the bloke taking your customers, do you only have this blokes word that you've lost 31 customers or have you been and called on them yourself? Is it possible that the list he showed you was simply to a way for him to find out who your customers were under the pretext of being considerate?

It all sounds a bit unlikely as most customers tend to be loyal to their existing window cleaner.

Cheers

Ross

[gaza]

Ross just been around some of them and yes hes taken them,he gave me a list of  his new customers and sure enough 31 were mine and some I didnt do anyway[and some Ihad got rid off because bad payers, got maybe 4/5 back.

Found out he told one customer at least THE OLD MAN HAS PACKED UP [OLD MAN AT 50] STILL CAN DO WHAT HE CAN DO IN ALL DEPARTMENTS IF NOT BETTER IN SOME DEPARTMENTS
WOULDNT LIKE TO TIMESHARE HIS MRS WITH ME

I used to work on building sites years ago so totally agree with what you saying about transformer,but the foreman was quite obnoxious,so to pacifie him and nothing to hide I gave him my card. AFTER MY VISIT BY H/S POLICE Ive been assured that Im complying [phew] unless get a letter in the post in the morning.
GAZA

[windows_chepstow]

So if a conviction is spent under the rehabilitation act, does it HAVE to be declared to the NFMWGC on application to join?

Graham,

Why are you going on about the NFMWGC?  As far as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, you could be a murdering-burglaring bigamist; but when you sign on your NFMWGC application form to say your have no convictions; it's just a matter of 'self-certifying' your 'clean record'.

For a CRB check you have to sign a form agreeing for the check to be carried out.

Anyway, well done to Steve K for clarifying the process.  I only know about the 'spent period' because I spent 21 days in detention for going AWOL from the army to join the French Foriegn Legion; fuelled by alcohol, youth and high spirits!

I also attempted to join the RUC a few years back and had to declare any time spent in civil or military custody; even though I was 19 years old when I went AWOL.  

If I had to get a 'licence' to clean windows, there's no way stuff like this would hold you back.

Anyway, where were we?  What thread is this?  Where's my nurse?

[g_griffin]

I would tell them about embezzlement though  .

                       Gerry.

[The Bear]

 As far as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, you could be a murdering-burglaring bigamist;

dont think the NFMW&GC understand words like that

[rosskesava]

Hi Graham G

Something got at you then................. oooooh...... touchy......

You have a secret or two I bet and yes, you are going on about it and I may as well join in.

Anyway, I have convictions from when I was a teenager, some minor but one or two a bit serious, (nothing nasty but good old trying to get something for free) and I was a train driver on the railways where the then system, under BR, was so thorough and those things from my murky past didn't matter.

I think the convictions things when young make no difference unless you are still young.

What is NFMW&GC anyway?

Cheers

[Paul Coleman]

Hi Graham G

Something got at you then................. oooooh...... touchy......

You have a secret or two I bet and yes, you are going on about it and I may as well join in.

Anyway, I have convictions from when I was a teenager, some minor but one or two a bit serious, (nothing nasty but good old trying to get something for free) and I was a train driver on the railways where the then system, under BR, was so thorough and those things from my murky past didn't matter.

I think the convictions things when young make no difference unless you are still young.

Cheers

Hopefully you are right about it not mattering any more.  I don't suppose a bit of personal wacky baccy in 1972 or an "obstructing the old bill" rap in 1974 would count too much against a guy who's pushing 50 now (me).  It would still be enough to force me into applying for a visa if I ever decide to visit the USA though so I think I will just visit other parts of the world instead.