[Polish Windows]

.

[drwindows]

The only way to be completely sure is to get a crash-tested system.

This was a major concern of mine when I got my system, and I was prepared to pay extra for the peace of mind.

The only company that does them is Ionic, there's loads of information about how they've made sure their system is safe on their website, including the crash-testing videos.

http://ionicsystems.com/english/crash_testing.html

Forget what other people on here will say about other things being completely safe if fitted by a reputable company.  As far as i'm concerned that is not something to rely on.  The only way you can be sure is to test it in a crash, and thats what Ionic have done.

Yes the systems cost more, but well worth it IMO.

How do people like Purefreedom secure the tank?

Unsafely, in my opinion.

[gewindows]

Purefreedom are engineers, I would imagine that they  have every bit of experience, qualifications and knowledge to be able to safely fit a van-mount system.

http://www.adepta.net/

[gewindows]

I suppose you could be picky and say Ionics are a window cleaning supply company, what do they know about liquid dynamics, vehicle safety, torsion bla bla bla.

[drwindows]

I suppose you could be picky and say Ionics are a window cleaning supply company, what do they know about liquid dynamics, vehicle safety, torsion bla bla bla.

I suppose I could say well surely thats why they got Thatcham, who are experts in the field, to do the testing for them.

Purefreedom are engineers, I would imagine that they  have every bit of experience, qualifications and knowledge to be able to safely fit a van-mount system.

Engineers that specialize in control panels.  Does that make them experts in vehicle safety? No.

And anyway, in my opinion, it doesnt matter how much of an engineer you are, the only way to be sure its safe is to test it.

[p1w1]

Guys,

I know it's always tempting to create another "Ionics v rest-of-the-world" thread (or vice versa), but I've really honestly seen enough of them.

I appreciate the comment about Ionics' fittings.  One thing I have noted, though, is that they do like their cubic metre water tanks.  The problem with those is that they have a higher centre of gravity, so they rotate a significant amount in an impact (which is why in one of their tests fixings rip out of the floor of the van).

One solution I've considred is as low and long a tank as I can muster.  Taking it to it's limit, I can go to a 25cm deep tank if it covers my van floor. If I had one made, it would hook round the wheel arches, so they would be holding it back in an accident as well as any bulkhead.  Thanks to the low centre of gravity, there would be no (or negligible) rotational force on the tank, so all the forces on any fittings would be shear forces, i.e. easier to resist without tearing the van floor.

Does this sound feasible?  Anyone explored it?

PW

I think thats a good idea (although i'm no expert on all this so please don't hang me  ) after reading a post ewan made the other day i am now really thinking about getting a custom tank made that will basically fill the whole of the floor space and mould it around the arches as you have stated giving the tank a lower center of gravity and also haveing it tight to the steel bulkhead i intend to get a lwb transit connect in the not to distant future and will more then likely go this way, will be also interesting to see how gardiners new system will be like iu wouldn't want the whole system but maybe they will also do custom tanks and fit them i believe these will be crash tested.

paul

[stephen s]

it all depends on how much you value your life and what it would mean to your family if you cut corners and had a large tank of water in the back of your van with just staps as thats an accident just waiting to happen.


you will always get the ones on here telling you that you don't need to have it fitted safely as straps will do just as good a job,   yes Ionics may sound expensive compared to others but your buying piece of mind on the safety side.


you owe it to yourself and your family to take every possible step to stay safe in your van.



pay the extra and not the penalty

[matt]

isnt crash testing is specific to vehicles ? ? ? ? , so if a test is done in a transit LWB, it doesnt mean the same results in VW T4 or T5 etc etc

ask Thatcham about it  do a little research

[matt]

Guys,

I know it's always tempting to create another "Ionics v rest-of-the-world" thread (or vice versa), but I've really honestly seen enough of them.

I appreciate the comment about Ionics' fittings.  One thing I have noted, though, is that they do like their cubic metre water tanks.  The problem with those is that they have a higher centre of gravity, so they rotate a significant amount in an impact (which is why in one of their tests fixings rip out of the floor of the van).

One solution I've considred is as low and long a tank as I can muster.  Taking it to it's limit, I can go to a 25cm deep tank if it covers my van floor. If I had one made, it would hook round the wheel arches, so they would be holding it back in an accident as well as any bulkhead.  Thanks to the low centre of gravity, there would be no (or negligible) rotational force on the tank, so all the forces on any fittings would be shear forces, i.e. easier to resist without tearing the van floor.

Does this sound feasible?  Anyone explored it?

PW

I think thats a good idea (although i'm no expert on all this so please don't hang me  ) after reading a post ewan made the other day i am now really thinking about getting a custom tank made that will basically fill the whole of the floor space and mould it around the arches as you have stated giving the tank a lower center of gravity and also haveing it tight to the steel bulkhead i intend to get a lwb transit connect in the not to distant future and will more then likely go this way, will be also interesting to see how gardiners new system will be like iu wouldn't want the whole system but maybe they will also do custom tanks and fit them i believe these will be crash tested.

paul

the full size tank the size of the floor is a great idea, you will have a very low center of gravity

[JamesTurnbull]

Guys,

I've read plenty on here about how to secure a WPF tank to a van, and lots of times it seems to come down to using load straps secured to chassis members.  While I'm sure this might do the job, I really don't want to be the one who finds out it's not actually good enough come an accident, when I'm hit in the back of the neck by a 1 tonne water container travelling at 40mph.  I'm happy to use load straps to keep the tank in place, but unhappy to use them as the primary means of stopping the tank killing me.

For background, I once drove a transit with a roll of paper weighing about 750Kg on a pallet.  I had to brake hard on the East Lancs road and I can still remember the awful sound of it sliding and then loudly cracking the plywood boxing behind me.  Heaven knows what would have happened if I'd hit something solid instead of just having to brake hard.

My solution after that experience was always to have the load pushed up to the bulkhead, so it never started moving; I didn't have any problems after that.  That's got me minded as to a possible solution, namely fitting a steel bulkhead to the transit and having the tank rest against it.  That way, it should never start moving relative to the van, so at least there won't be an impact against the bulkhead that needs to be resisted. What I'm still unsure of is whether that's going to do the job, as most of the bulkheads on sale are only 1.5mm mild steel.  There's very little information on the internet regarding safe loading of vans, so I'm a little stuck.  I'd be minded to fit a couple of extra reinforcing bars to a bulkhead and use that.

Has anyone had experience of an accident with a tank fitted?  How did it go?  What was the damage?  Did load straps do the job?  Did you have a bulkhead?  How do people like Purefreedom secure the tank?

Any and all ideas and suggestions welcome.  Please assume that I'm not going to rely on load straps except as a way to stop the tank moving about in the first place.

PW

I wanted a system that was crash tested, so i went for a ionics system (pro 6 400L)

But ionics did offer me a crash tested system with just the tank and frame, it was through there sister company pure2o

They will fit it locally for just £50.

http://www.pure2o.co.uk/shop/product_info.php?cPath=33&products_id=224

here is there website page.

[gewindows]

I suppose you could be picky and say Ionics are a window cleaning supply company, what do they know about liquid dynamics, vehicle safety, torsion bla bla bla.

I suppose I could say well surely thats why they got Thatcham, who are experts in the field, to do the testing for them.

Purefreedom are engineers, I would imagine that they  have every bit of experience, qualifications and knowledge to be able to safely fit a van-mount system.

Engineers that specialize in control panels.  Does that make them experts in vehicle safety? No.

And anyway, in my opinion, it doesnt matter how much of an engineer you are, the only way to be sure its safe is to test it.

What experience do you have of PureFreedom van mount systems?

[jonnyald]

the floor tank sounds good-but instead of metal why not just get a local plastic fabrication firm to weld one up for you . 

[p1w1]

this place does them http://www.plasticwatertanks.co.uk/1.html ..

paul

[wizard]

Interesting subject just a question? how many people have been killed by there water tank and how many have had accidents that have been minor with no damage to themselves. Give some details please. That all I would like to know. I sure someone has a story.

[matt]

Interesting subject just a question? how many people have been killed by there water tank and how many have had accidents that have been minor with no damage to themselves. Give some details please. That all I would like to know. I sure someone has a story.

i allways think of all the other vans on the road, the builders with a cement mixer and 25 bags of sand and cement in the rear, all not even secured in the slightest

we have had people on here from the print trade say they use to drive around with a pallet of paper in the rear, unsecured

if you want to to be sold the safety aspect, then go for a unit that has been crash tested ( though as i posted above, the Thatcham crash test is specific for each vehicle, yes the brackets / fixings might be crash tested, but how it performs in a crash might not be the same ( the chassis rails will be made differently on different vans )

[gewindows]

I hit a kerb outside your house the other week, only damage done was to the wishbone on the steering.


Tank fine.

[gewindows]

i allways think of all the other vans on the road, the builders with a cement mixer and 25 bags of sand and cement in the rear, all not even secured in the slightest

Ive never thought that is a fair comparison Matt. Water has a kinetic energy (its always on the move, see which causes you the most difficulty to catch and hold on to, a 10 Kg barrel of water or a 10 Kg bag of sand).

Also 20 bags of cement may weigh in at 500Kg but theyre separate items, all of them, if theres a prang the energy is spread out in lots of different directions dissipating throughout, a 500 Kg tank of water is an entirely different thing to be considering, the forces in that will react totally differently.

[matt]

i allways think of all the other vans on the road, the builders with a cement mixer and 25 bags of sand and cement in the rear, all not even secured in the slightest

Ive never thought that is a fair comparison Matt. Water has a kinetic energy (its always on the move, see which causes you the most difficulty to catch and hold on to, a 10 Kg barrel of water or a 10 Kg bag of sand).

Also 20 bags of cement may weigh in at 500Kg but theyre separate items, all of them, if theres a prang the energy is spread out in lots of different directions dissipating throughout, a 500 Kg tank of water is an entirely different thing to be considering, the forces in that will react totally differently.

if a petrol cement mixer is loose in the back, i cannot see any difference over a 250 L tank

when it comes down to the basics, we are talking a crash with a item that weighs a fair bit coming at you, now a tank secured using the following method , heavy duty ( we will say 5 T ) straps ,  12.9 rated bolts through the chassis rail ( they will have holes in them, use them holes )fixing  LORRY TIE DOWN PLATES / EYESand as big as possible spreader plates

will be safer than that petrol mixer sat in the back

no ? ?? ?

[gewindows]

Id say there is a good arguement to suggest that a cement mixer is not going to cause the same amount of damage as a tank inadequately secured. If the tank is safely secured then there wont be a problem. But its no good saying 'well those Bodgit and Scarper builders are allowed to get away with carting an unsafe load around so why shouldnt we' as thats like saying 2 wrongs make a right. Which they dont, especially when you're sat in front of it and it hits a solid object at 55mph 


I was driving a  flat-bed transit once, years ago when I was landscaping,  we had a piece of kit on the back inadequately tied down. I had to brake hard at a roundabout and this piece of kit came rolling down the bed and hopped up after hitting some other bits of machinery onto the cab, so there we were sat at this roundabout with a soil cultivator for the tractor sat on the cab. If that had been an inadequately secured tank of water it wouldnt have stopped at the cab.

[michael papworth]

i allways think of all the other vans on the road, the builders with a cement mixer and 25 bags of sand and cement in the rear, all not even secured in the slightest

Ive never thought that is a fair comparison Matt. Water has a kinetic energy (its always on the move, see which causes you the most difficulty to catch and hold on to, a 10 Kg barrel of water or a 10 Kg bag of sand).

Also 20 bags of cement may weigh in at 500Kg but theyre separate items, all of them, if theres a prang the energy is spread out in lots of different directions dissipating throughout, a 500 Kg tank of water is an entirely different thing to be considering, the forces in that will react totally differently.

Sorry, Matt. But the science in this is wrong in just about every possible way.

TBH, the only solution to this is sensible driving.

Rather than spending several hundred pounds on tank mounts of dubious merit etc, I'd suggest investing the money in an advanced driving course and avoid dangerous manoeuvres and collisions.