[gewindows]

Wally which Matt are you talking to? 

[matt]

Id say there is a good arguement to suggest that a cement mixer is not going to cause the same amount of damage as a tank inadequately secured.

without being argumentative just for the sake of it , are you serious ? ? ?

[michael papworth]

Wally which Matt are you talking to? 

You, I'm afraid.

Let me explain - in blue.

Ive never thought that is a fair comparison Matt. Water has a kinetic energy (its always on the move, see which causes you the most difficulty to catch and hold on to, a 10 Kg barrel of water or a 10 Kg bag of sand).

Wrong. We're talking about collision situations in this thread. A 10kg bag of sand or a 10 kg barrel of water will do just as much damage if they hit you in the back at 30 mph.

Also 20 bags of cement may weigh in at 500Kg but theyre separate items, all of them, if theres a prang the energy is spread out in lots of different directions dissipating throughout, a 500 Kg tank of water is an entirely different thing to be considering, the forces in that will react totally differently.

Again wrong. In a collision situation, we are concerned with the momentum of the projectiles. Momentum is a vector quantity. That means that it has direction. And the direction is the direction that you are travelling at the instant of impact - which is forward. If you have 20 bags of cement in the back, each and every one of them will fly directly forward at the moment of impact.

[gewindows]

Id say there is a good arguement to suggest that a cement mixer is not going to cause the same amount of damage as a tank inadequately secured.

without being argumentative just for the sake of it , are you serious ? ? ?

Im not being arguementative just for the sake of it. A cement mixer weighs about 60Kg and tank of water can weigh a tonne. Whats so unserious about that?

[gewindows]

Wally which Matt are you talking to? 

You, I'm afraid.

Let me explain - in blue.

Ive never thought that is a fair comparison Matt. Water has a kinetic energy (its always on the move, see which causes you the most difficulty to catch and hold on to, a 10 Kg barrel of water or a 10 Kg bag of sand).

Wrong. We're talking about collision situations in this thread. A 10kg bag of sand or a 10 kg barrel of water will do just as much damage if they hit you in the back at 30 mph.

Also 20 bags of cement may weigh in at 500Kg but theyre separate items, all of them, if theres a prang the energy is spread out in lots of different directions dissipating throughout, a 500 Kg tank of water is an entirely different thing to be considering, the forces in that will react totally differently.

Again wrong. In a collision situation, we are concerned with the momentum of the projectiles. Momentum is a vector quantity. That means that it has direction. And the direction is the direction that you are travelling at the instant of impact - which is forward. If you have 20 bags of cement in the back, each and every one of them will fly directly forward at the moment of impact.

Im not going to dispute you Wally, I do believe I have a certain point though. Id far rather be hit by a bag of cement than a tank full of water.

[michael papworth]

Wally which Matt are you talking to? 

You, I'm afraid.

Let me explain - in blue.

Ive never thought that is a fair comparison Matt. Water has a kinetic energy (its always on the move, see which causes you the most difficulty to catch and hold on to, a 10 Kg barrel of water or a 10 Kg bag of sand).

Wrong. We're talking about collision situations in this thread. A 10kg bag of sand or a 10 kg barrel of water will do just as much damage if they hit you in the back at 30 mph.

Also 20 bags of cement may weigh in at 500Kg but theyre separate items, all of them, if theres a prang the energy is spread out in lots of different directions dissipating throughout, a 500 Kg tank of water is an entirely different thing to be considering, the forces in that will react totally differently.

Again wrong. In a collision situation, we are concerned with the momentum of the projectiles. Momentum is a vector quantity. That means that it has direction. And the direction is the direction that you are travelling at the instant of impact - which is forward. If you have 20 bags of cement in the back, each and every one of them will fly directly forward at the moment of impact.

Im not going to dispute you Wally, I do believe I have a certain point though. Id far rather be hit by a bag of cement than a tank full of water.

That's my point about spending your money on an advanced driving course. Don't get hit by either!!

And if someone hits you from the front hard enough to ram you into the tank in the back, you'd be dead about 0.1 seconds after impact and it would be about another 0.2 seconds before you hit the tank. So you don't really care, do you?

[michael papworth]

That's precisely why you need a course on defensive driving. You learn to expect the unexpected. And when you're driving with a van loaded with 1000 kg of water, you'll drive rather more gently, accelerating very gently ( to conserve fuel) and braking very gently and looking a long way ahead so you can anticipate traffic lights and roundabouts etc.

Ask any mates you have who are LGV drivers. They'll tell you how to drive properly. Ask one of them to ride with you and give you some pointers on safe driving.

It's a "Pray to God and keep your powder dry" approach.

Sure, secure your tank as well as you can, but drive as if you mean it.

[luther1]

The Ionics system was crash tested in a Transit i think and as Matt said,what would the outcome be in another van. My Ionics system in my old Trafic was only bolted through the chassis by the front two mounts,the back two were just bolted through the floor. Probably would have peeled the floor open like a can of sardines. Its in my T5 now and that is another story. I have a diy in my Berlingo with some heavy duty eyelets welded in and hd straps to tie it down. Straps seem fine to me,maybe i'm wrong though!

[matt]

Id say there is a good arguement to suggest that a cement mixer is not going to cause the same amount of damage as a tank inadequately secured.

without being argumentative just for the sake of it , are you serious ? ? ?

Im not being arguementative just for the sake of it. A cement mixer weighs about 60Kg and tank of water can weigh a tonne. Whats so unserious about that?

you are not taking like for like though

a big petrol mixer ( the type they use on sites , not the handyman type ) will weigh more than 60 KG

its "unserious" to compare a 60 kg mixer to a 1000L tank

[matt]

The Ionics system was crash tested in a Transit i think and as Matt said,what would the outcome be in another van

exactly

My Ionics system in my old Trafic was only bolted through the chassis by the front two mounts,the back two were just bolted through the floor. Probably would have peeled the floor open like a can of sardines.

which goes to show what a farce is can be

[matt]

the whole point of my post about builders van etc etc, wasnt a specific weight of things, bags of cement etc etc, it was to illustrate that alot of people drive around with items unsecured that will kill you

the plumbers who have a gas bottle in the back, if that hits you in the back , your dead

the pallet of paper from the printers, the pallet of bricks, the list goes on and on

once you get above a certain weight , your dead

now we are not talking of not securing your tank, that would be just stupid, BUT that doesnt mean its not doable to secure the tank yourself Or a engineering firm

now i have done mine like this  ( its a 400 L LAYFLAT TANK )and as i have said, i have had a guy who makes roll cages for racing cars look at it, he laughed and said how much overkill it was

3 ( or 4 ) heavy duty ( we will say 5 T ) straps , 2 from side to side, the other 1 ( or 2 ) in a X front to back (taking in and through the baffle ),  12.9 rated bolts through the chassis rail ( they will have holes in them, use them holes ) fixing  LORRY TIE DOWN PLATES / EYES and as big as possible spreader plates

[Ian Lancaster]

Think about this:

The strongest part of your van is the chassis.

If you carry any sort of cargo (and a full water tank is cargo), you can only make it as safe as the chassis is strong.  In other words - if it is attached rigidly to the chassis then it is as safe as you can possibly make it.  No matter how strong your fixing brackets/cage/high tensile bolts/ratchet straps, none of these are going to do you any good if the chassis gives way, the tank will take off and clobber you in the back of the head.

SO:

Make sure that you use at least 12mm high tensile bolts and fit one each side of the chassis member with a length of angle (or preferably channel) steel across the bottom of the chassis member.  The two bolts pass each side of the chassis member and through the angle/channel to form a super strong U-bolt.  The upper end of the HT bolts pass through a length of angle steel (this will be at least three times as thick as your mild steel chassis member).  The steel angle has this U-bolt arrangement at each end with the steel laid side to side across the van bed.

There are two of these angle steels, one in front and one behind the tank.

You can now drill the upright web of the angle steel in any place convenient to allow for the attachment of cage/straps or whatever.

THE IMPORTANT BIT IS THAT THIS ANCHOR ARRANGEMENT IS FAR STRONGER THAN YOUR VAN CHASSIS, SO ANYTHING ATTACHED TO IT WILL, IN THE EVENT OF A CRASH, DESTROY THE CHASSIS BEFORE THE STEEL BENDS/BREAKS OR OTHER WISE FAILS.

If that happens, then you're dead anyway and theres nothing else you could have done to prevent it.

[gewindows]

its "unserious" to compare a 60 kg mixer to a 1000L tank

Matt I only used the cement mixer scenario because you initially used a builder carrying a cement mixer as a comparison against us guys.

In this post http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=89860.msg804029#msg804029

[matt]

its "unserious" to compare a 60 kg mixer to a 1000L tank

Matt I only used the cement mixer scenario because you initially used a builder carrying a cement mixer as a comparison against us guys.

In this post http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=89860.msg804029#msg804029

yes but i never said it was going to be a mixer weighing 60 kg did i ? ? ? ? and yes i have seen the bigger mixers loaded into the back of vans, with a pallet of cement aswell

but it doesnt matter anyways, as a 60 kg hitting you from behind is going to kill you in a crash

but thats enough of this from me, as i have made my point about a builders van full of kit being much unsafer than a van with a tank secured in a "sensible" way

[matt]

You can now drill the upright web of the angle steel in any place convenient to allow for the attachment of cage/straps or whatever.

wouldnt it be better to fit a spacer between the angle steel and the floor, then you can just hook the tie down strap hook under the complete thing, this will be stronger

not knocking your way, just thinking of a stronger solution

[matt]

the floor tank sounds good-but instead of metal why not just get a local plastic fabrication firm to weld one up for you . 

It's going to become a sort of raised floor for the van, so I thought steel might be more suitable.

PW

plastic would do fine, with a few baffles in and then some 3/4 " ply over the top of it

[Smudger]

Great thread guys,

I agree with Matt ( i think ) in you dont need to spend thousands on a system being bolted into your van when you could get it done for a couple of hundred at any decent fab shop.

i have a 400 ltr upright in my combo and i am happier with that than when i had 250 ltrs as the 400 fits very snugly into the van against the bulkhead and is also bigger than the opening into the cab area so very unlikly to move forward. - this tank is secured with straps.

a floor - low level tank is a great idea but would there be issues with parking on hills etc as a large volume of water would be in the van but not very deep so would you not have trouble pumping it out ??

Darran

[Ian Lancaster]

You can now drill the upright web of the angle steel in any place convenient to allow for the attachment of cage/straps or whatever.

wouldnt it be better to fit a spacer between the angle steel and the floor, then you can just hook the tie down strap hook under the complete thing, this will be stronger

not knocking your way, just thinking of a stronger solution

If you did that there's a chance the hook could slip along the steel, especially in a side on collision.  Hooking it through the steel locates it in exactly the place you want it to hold the strap in the right position over the tank.

Good thought, though

[sparklebright]

I used to work in Sales and part of successful sales if you are a manufacturer is getting your item specified
You do this by having a selling point. Ionics invested the money in these tests (which are v expensive) in order to increase sales. Their system obviously works.
But it is not the only way to do it. Fixing several 5 tonne straps using eye bolts is NOT taking a risk or bodging, as long those eye-bolts are secured in the way described earlier.
What would you expect Ionics to say? Our system is only as good as others? The guy who Knocked purefreedom earlier probably works for Ionics... :

This is a serious safety issue but don't let one company hijack it to sell more of it's systems. The safety tests were an investment.
They prove Ionics system is safe they do not prove others are not.
Don't be so naive.

[matt]

I used to work in Sales and part of successful sales if you are a manufacturer is getting your item specified
You do this by having a selling point. Ionics invested the money in these tests (which are v expensive) in order to increase sales. Their system obviously works.
But it is not the only way to do it. Fixing several 5 tonne straps using eye bolts is NOT taking a risk or bodging, as long those eye-bolts are secured in the way described earlier.
What would you expect Ionics to say? Our system is only as good as others? The guy who Knocked purefreedom earlier probably works for Ionics... :

This is a serious safety issue but don't let one company hijack it to sell more of it's systems. The safety tests were an investment.
They prove Ionics system is safe they do not prove others are not.
Don't be so naive.

good point

the sensible amoungst us will know it was just a sales pitch