[Pristine Clean]

Cheers Ken.

I wont bother getting one just yet then.

Dave

[Simon@arenaclean]

Simon,

I was interested in the turbo machine you have, if I am right that is from Cleansmart. Do you rate them, would you buy it again? What PSI do you have?

I am not that technical when it comes to the specifications of all machines but the portable keep trying to match the power of a TM, So as far as I am aware portable the modern ones are matching on psi now,Still I only thought you needed such high psi for hard surface clesaning not for carpets, but what about the actual suction... what is different there between the portable and TM (modern ones - uptodate).

Cheers

Dave

Yes the Airflex came from Matt at Cleansmart. I am very happy with the machine both it's performance and build quality. On PSI. The pump is 600 psi but frankly you don't need it for carpets, did a really dirty pub & restaurant and was running at 250/300 which was more than enough, comparing this to my Alltec pro twin vac fitted with a 135 psi pump, (great machine) it's completely different. Same with the triple vacs even with the higher psi carpets are drier even at over 100ft. I don't understand the theory but with 2" hose it does make the job easier. I can't really compare it it with a TM as I don't have one but I would suggest all but an entry level TM is more powerful than any portie as we are limited to domestic circuits. If the question is would I upgrade to a triple/high psi yes I would do it again and yes it would be an Airflex. If you are considering it give Matt a ring and go and try it that's what I did. I plan on adding a prowler  next year but my main problem is with my biggest clients a TM is not an option so I upgraded my portable.

Simon

[AJB]

The theory of 2" hose as you put it is, 1 1/2" hose can flow at maximum 230 CFM.
So with a vac' optomised machine having a maximum of about 120CFM there is no restriction.

With an air optomised machine ie vac's in parallel each vacuum flows about 110 CFM, therefore
with 3 vac's the flow is throttled.
2" hose flows about 400 CFM.

[richie]

Portables that give upto 600psi water is at a low flow rate however, even a entry level TM gives upto 1000psi at a flow rate of over 10 litres per minute.  So if you set a portable at 600psi and a TM at 300 psi the water pressure from the truckmount even at half the psi will be more agrresive due to the higher flow rate.  The positive displacement vac blowers on a TM are worlds apart from the even best of the best vac motors of any portable.  The vac blower on a TM are designed to run night and day with very little servicing required (oil & grease about every 600 hrs).  Vac motors from a porty will never have the life of the blower from a TM.  Entry level TMs will as the manufacture states run upto 250 feet of vac hose,  i have run a entry level TM at 350 feet of hose and still had plenty of power at the wand.  Remember all the noise apart from the air flow at the wand is outside when using a TM and everything goes to the tank on the van (unless usin a Prowler)

Richie.

[Joe H]

I can't really compare it it with a TM as I don't have one but I would suggest all but an entry level TM is more powerful than any portie as we are limited to domestic circuits.
Simon

Simon
You said the above, then later you say you thinking of getting a Prowler sometime in the nearish future.
If you mean the 13hp Prowler, isnt that an "entry level" porty,
Seems contradictory.
Have you tried a Prowler?

[Simon@arenaclean]

Joe,

No have not tried a prowler, as you have would you say the prowler is more powerful than a scorpion? I made it clear I don't have a TM, however as far as the triple vac porties manufactures go they compare them to entry level TMs. Can't say I consider the prowler entry level, obviously you do, not contradictory at all those that have used prowlers consider them more powerful than any portable.

[Joe H]

Hi Simon
As far as I know the 13hp is the smallest tm available new today (but maybe wrong), thats why I raised it.
Yes, I have a Scorpion, 3 vac, but mines a earlier one with 300psi pump.
Scorpion is about half the price of the Prowler......... so is the Prowler as a entry level machine worth twice as much.
I dont know the answer to that as I have not had it long so dont know long term costs.


What I will say is.... if you can afford a 3 vac machine then get one, I love the Scorpion.
If you can afford a Prowler or the next machine up - the Pheonix then get one.
If the type of work you do allows you to use a tm majority of the time then you will benefit.

When I say "if you can afford"..... if you have a decent carpet cleaning business then get one - even if you have to finance it - it will pay for itself - be it 3 vac or tm.

[andrew christopher]

iv not used any tm other than the prowler, one of the things i like about the prowler is the ease of cleaning the filter, easy to access and because there is no waste tank obviously no cleaning of that or smell.
On a large job the filter on the prowler may need cleaning a couple of times for maximum vacuum, i wire brush mine after every job and rinse it out under a hose tap after the last job, sometmes use inline sprayer to rinse it out too.

I had a prochem powermax before the prowler and the difference is massive but i did get good reults with it just lots more mecanical agitation (sebo duo) and dwell time for prespray and going over the carpet more with wand to rinse and dry.

I could not go back to the prochem now, i think for joe using a top end porti the difference isnt as great.

[Ken Wainwright]

Richie has given a good explanation to demonstrate why a T/M blower is superior to a porty with apparently similar (or even greater) air flow specs.

I tend to describe the difference in a slightly different way to Richie though. All that even the highest spec porty does is suck air. That air will carry some water within it. You have to keep lifting the wand off the carpet to let extra air into the system to carry away the water you've just sucked out the carpet.

A T/M blower will suck any fluid. It doesn't matter whether its air or water, it will suck the lot. No problem.    Fill a bucket with water and a blower will take the lot no problem. Try it with any porty and you'll have to keep pulling the hose out to let more air in, because it's the air that takes the water, not the vac motor.

I'm confusing myself now!!!

Safe and happy sucking
The Ken

[Mike Halliday]

 So if you set a portable at 600psi and a TM at 300 psi the water pressure from the truckmount even at half the psi will be more aggressive due to the higher flow rate.

this is slightly wrong, the flow is set by the jets so using the same wand the psi & flow will be exactly the same. how the T/M would have an advantage is it has the higher capacity to use bigger jets so if you set the psi to 600 on both the T/M & the portable it would have the same flow using a 02 +02 +02 jet wand.

 but the T/M could use a 04 +04 +04 jet wand, were the portable couldn't give enough flow

[Mike Osbourne]

In my mind I imagine the TM has more power to push a greater amount of water through the jets quicker, hence greater volume.

So you also get more energy transferred to the carpet.

[Ken Wainwright]

I sort of agree with you Mike and also I don't

Lets say we have an 02 jet. This will pass 0.02 of a US gallon @ 40 psi. Increase the flow and the pressure of the pump and the jet will allow more water through.

A porty running @. say, 300psi will allow, say, 3 litres a minute. A T/M @ 300psi will allow, say, 6 litres a minute.

I don't know at what point an 02 jet would reach it's maximum flow.

From my own crude tests with my porty, my wand doesn't allow any greater flow once I get over 250 psi, even at 300, 400 and 500psi, the flow per minute was exactly the same.  A T/M pump with it's much greater flow will move the perfomance envelope on quite a bit.

Safe and happy cleaning
The Ken

[JandS]

Ken

Surely a vacuum is a vacuum whether Tm or portable, the only difference being
the power of the lift created by the vacuum.
Both systems create a vacuum in the hose through which water, air and any other
crap in the vicinity of the orifice get drawn up due to atmospheric pressure.
So there not actually sucking, the higher air pressure outside the vacuum is shoving
the water and whatever up the hose.
That's what I thought re vacs.

John

[Mike Halliday]

A porty running @. say, 300psi will allow, say, 3 litres a minute. A T/M @ 300psi will allow, say, 6 litres a minute


ken you are wrong, using the same jets the flow will be exactly the same, its like saying a Juggernaut travelling at 50mph will be moving faster than a Robin reliant travelling at 50mph. size has nothing to do with it. the unit of measure is PSI which is the same until you exceed the pump flow capacity

[Jim_77]

John,

Imagine a train and a motorcycle both travelling at 50mph.  Imagine they both hit a brick wall.

The difference in effect of the brick wall on moving vehicles is something like the difference between electric vac motors and TM blowers.

[Joe H]

On a large job the filter on the prowler may need cleaning a couple of times for maximum vacuum, i wire brush mine after every job and rinse it out under a hose tap after the last job, sometmes use inline sprayer to rinse it out too.

Fro the Prowler owners
Here is what I use over the filter.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/15-Denier-Pop-Socks-20-pairs-choice-of-6-colours_W0QQitemZ220516212207QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Women_s_Underwear_Design_2?var=&hash=item79127b0d76#ht_609wt_939
Means I dont have to brush the debri from the filter grooves - just pull it away if it is carpet fibre, or wash it off with a garden hose.
20 pairs for £6.75 inc postage is cheap.
Only problem is they came in a package addressed to Mr Joe Hatton etc and had "The Tight Shop" all over it - wondered why the postie was smilng.
Clinton always wears them on Saturday nights 

[Colin Day]

You're a crank Joe..... Laughing my head off here

[John Kelly]

What Jim is talking about is Velocity. Fluid travelling through a jet has its velocity determined by how fast the pump can replace the water that has been ejected. Pressure on most machines is measured at the pump or shortly after it. The vlocity is the speed in which that water exits the jet. Therefore different pumps will create more velocity at the jet even at the same psi.

[richie]

Mike, the point i was making is this....If you run a porty at 600psi and a TM at 300 psi using the same wand, you will see and feel the differnce of the water coming from the wand.  The TM has a much much greater flow rate.  I have actually ran a porty at 500psi & a TM at 300 psi and there was a MASSIVE difference.  The flow from the jets on the TM is much harsher.

Richie.

[Mike Osbourne]

You can talk all you want about capacity for power work done/time, momentum, jets acting as flow rate restrictors, but the answer is.

Get a truckmount if you can afford one because it's better all round, end off. Don't add science to the list of justifications for using a portable.

As Dave said when he started the thread you can get a new TM that's small and relatively cheap these days and is well within the grasp of the average carpet cleaner.