[Sunshine/Cleaning]

I thought I would point out a few issues with scratched glass.
First of all your public liability will most likely not cover the issue of scratched glass. Most insurances don't cover the "Glass being worked upon" the reason for this is because of "Fabrication Debris". Now just do a google search for that and see what issues it brings up. The problem arises when toughened glass has been made in an unclean environment, one side of the glass as it heats up to toughen it comes in contact with minute particles of glass debris. When this cools down it leaves a tiny raised surface. This would never be a problem with normal cleaning but if for example you use a scraper to get off a sticker you may dislodge the raised bit, leave a small hole and scratch the glass with the dislodged particle.

The only real way around this is to get the home owner to sign a "scratched glass waiver" you should also recommend they get the builder to sign one as well. If it is new glass it is the builders responsibility to make sure the glass he buys does not have what is called in the industry as this "ticking bomb" it ticks because at some point someone will dislodge the debris and it will scratch.

[Sunshine/Cleaning]

http://sunshine-cleaning.net/Documents/CleanerToBuilder.pdf

http://sunshine-cleaning.net/Documents/BuilderToSupplier.pdf

[Ta-ra]

So what about if you don't use a scraper, but use wfp instead?  Why should a brush pick up one of these 'damaged' particles?

I think we all know that if you use a scraper you make one pass at time - lifting at the end of the run, wiping the blade, then re-applying the motion and so on and so forth.  In other words, to use a scraper repeatedly back and forth may well lift some debris up and indeed scratch the glass.  Same with old rag etc.

A wfp brush does none of this AFAIAA.

[Sunshine/Cleaning]

Sorry Freddy I didn't mean to upset you. This really only applies to using a window cleaning scraper blade. I obviously didn't read your original post properly. Having said that the information on Fabrication Debris is quite important. As for your insurance most have a policy of not  insuring against the glass being worked on, its best to look at your policy details.

If you have building debris on the window I would personally say that you risk a claim when using a pole simply because you cant actually see what you are doing, unlike when you have your nose to the glass. The only real way around this is to get the builders to do a rough clean to get rid of the cement or mortar or whatever is on the glass.

Personally with cleaning after builders have been I would usually get my ladders out as you really need to see what you are doing.

As with any problem everyone blames someone else. The builders wont clean them because they worry about scratching. If it is scratched after the window cleaner has been the builder can blame him, whereas any window cleaner will blame the builder.

I would try to always get the customer to sign a waiver so that you don't have the worry of 'finding' some problem that is hidden by dirt.

[Ta-ra]

Not upset, SC, but can't reply just this minute.  It's an important topic this, so I will be back.

[Sunshine/Cleaning]

I only know so much as I have come across it and didn't realise until on the 4th huge patio door. I presented a document to the customer outlining what the cause was and they accepted it. I thought the popping noise was paint coming off the glass only to realise it wasn't.

[jonnyald]

I only know so much as I have come across it and didn't realise until on the 4th huge patio door. I presented a document to the customer outlining what the cause was and they accepted it. I thought the popping noise was paint coming off the glass only to realise it wasn't.

what make was the glass you came across?

[Ta-ra]

Sorry Freddy I didn't mean to upset you. This really only applies to using a window cleaning scraper blade. I obviously didn't read your original post properly. Having said that the information on Fabrication Debris is quite important. As for your insurance most have a policy of not  insuring against the glass being worked on, its best to look at your policy details.

If you have building debris on the window I would personally say that you risk a claim when using a pole simply because you cant actually see what you are doing, unlike when you have your nose to the glass. The only real way around this is to get the builders to do a rough clean to get rid of the cement or mortar or whatever is on the glass.

Personally with cleaning after builders have been I would usually get my ladders out as you really need to see what you are doing.

As with any problem everyone blames someone else. The builders wont clean them because they worry about scratching. If it is scratched after the window cleaner has been the builder can blame him, whereas any window cleaner will blame the builder.

I would try to always get the customer to sign a waiver so that you don't have the worry of 'finding' some problem that is hidden by dirt.

ok, back again.

I've read about this fabrication debris before, and this could be a weapon in my armoury right now, if the person in question wants to try my mettle.

Re-reading your post, maybe I've not much to add, tbh, suffice to day that I won't roll over and be tickled in the way that this person might imagine.  Brings out the fighting spirit, if anything.

As the person said, the windows were cleaned, 'by the builder', so that's weakness number one.

[GWCS]

If a customers says to you paint cement etc on windows, builders have been alarm bells should ring!

Before you agree to do anything you need to tell them what might of happened to their glass and the results of any removal using a scraper or chemicals etc.

Then you need to make them fully aware verbally and then by having a signed disclaimer stating they are aware of the facts and that you are not responsible, again giving them writing information which they have also signed to have received.

If they dont sign it - dont do the work - walk away very fast! Infact just run...

I appreciate you cant do this now, but for anyone else in the future, this could ruin a business and your reputation.

[bushnellk]

Hi Guys.
I was a glazier for 20 yrs and and have experienced scracthed glass on instalation. Its very rare for the glass to be damaged during its toughening process as it would break during the toughening process. The damage occurs in the making of a sealed unit at the factory or in transit. cement and plaster would scratch the glass if wiped over the surface. also today the glass is now K coated to conform with new fensa regs. This is A rated glass for energy effeciency and creates a soft coat on the glass. There are guidlines set out by the ggf and the last time i looked a scratch is if you looked through the glass from 1.5 mtrs and wasn,t in view its ok. More at the GGF website glass and glazing federation.
                                                                             Regards
                                                                                 Keith.

[L.Doubtfire - The Blade Runner]

Freddy,you did`nt say,but did you see the glass was scratched
Before you cleaned it?

[Tosh]

Freddy, I take it you've been accused of scratching glass and you've only used your WFP?

If that's the case then why not offer to demonstrate your WFP on a window and try to scratch the glass with the bristles?  I bet you can't.

But saying that, if there's scratches on the inside of the window and you didn't do them, then that should be enough evidence. 

This happened to a local window cleaner to me, there's no way he could make the scratches (I saw them, they're on a pub) even using a scraper, and in the end he just walked away despite a threat of litigation.

Nothing happened to him, and he - being 100% sure the scratches weren't caused by him - was correct in walking.

And some glass on new builds is rubbish!  There's scatches all over it from being brand new; I'm sure the building industry uses the cheapest materials on some of these new houses.

[Ta-ra]

I'm waiting for the dreaded solicitor's letter (quaking in my boots, not).

I can't add anything really, I say these scratches were caused by something other than a wfp brush.


If/when I get an update I'll let y'all know about it!

[Sunshine/Cleaning]

Hi Guys.
I was a glazier for 20 yrs and and have experienced scracthed glass on instalation. Its very rare for the glass to be damaged during its toughening process as it would break during the toughening process.

I think you have missed my point completely. Google fabrication debris and you will have a better idea. The whole point is that when leaving the factory and even after being glased you can not see any scratches because they are not there. The scratch only occurs when the fabrication debris is dislodged in the cleaning process ususlly with a scraper when taking stickers off. What Freddy is speaking of and what I posted are two different problems. I would be amased if any lawyer could determine WHEN the scratched were made so I think he has nothing to wory about. As Tosh says a demonstration would show this.
The damage occurs in the making of a sealed unit at the factory or in transit. cement and plaster would scratch the glass if wiped over the surface. also today the glass is now K coated to conform with new fensa regs. This is A rated glass for energy effeciency and creates a soft coat on the glass.

All the more reason then to get a scratched glass waiver befor doing a builders clean.


There are guidlines set out by the ggf and the last time i looked a scratch is if you looked through the glass from 1.5 mtrs and wasn,t in view its ok. More at the GGF website glass and glazing federation.
                                                                             Regards
                                                                                 Keith.

[L.Doubtfire - The Blade Runner]

Freddy,WFP brushes won`t themselves cause scratches that’s true.
If there was builders `compo`and sand and cement and the like on
Them prior to you cleaning them,then they will scratch the glass then.
They sure will!
It can sometimes happen when the window glass is really dirty.
It`s why I asked you if you saw them before you cleaned them.
This is something like a customer booking there windows to be cleaned.
When you arrive,they aint in and theres a window cracked.You go ahead
And clean,the same night they phone ya and accuse ya of breaking their
Glass! What do ya do??

[L.Doubtfire - The Blade Runner]

The customer could be acting in genuine belief you caused the scratches.
Any chance of contacting the builders? Anyway good luck with it.
The whole issue of scratched glass covers a `grey area`.

[Martin ccs]

tricky problem when you get blamed for that one!

9 times out of ten the customer will be all mouth and no action!

if the silly bitch is doing your head in then pay some kid to throw a brick through the window! 

she wont be bothered by a scratch then!

[SherwoodCleaningSe]

As the others say show her the equipment and let her try it for herself. As for insurance youay find that your not covered, damage upon property worked on would be covered not by public liability but treatment cover. The other thing if not is that windows cleaned by wfp will show up scratches not previously seen.

Simon.   

[Sunshine/Cleaning]

Freddy locked his thread as he didn't want to make further comments on the matter. I posted this which is about something quite different. So as not to irritate Freddy or his situation any longer I will Lock this thread.