[R W C]

i wonder if the ones moaning are the ones that moan that there are too many wfp cleaners in there area, why because the price to set up is way too cheap, bentley brushes/harris poles/back packs and also people selling water to there competitors, the prices are going to drop soon at this rate, the higher the prices the better I say

[GWCS]

Quote Alex Gardiner:

“To make a Carbon pole range really work you have to hold a carbon stock of about £80,000-£100,000,”

This is Retail price you are talking about Alex; otherwise you’re telling me you have possibly up to £500,000 worth of stock that you keep running out of. I don’t think so.

I like your SL-X Alex and I think you have addressed a couple of issues with poles for window cleaners. But I stand firm and say Carbon fibre poles are too expensive. All manufactures are to eager to explain there cost (although ambiguously) But are never eager to explain there profits! (Understandably) But the only thing that will change my mind about the price of these poles is a price drop.   

You could say the same about the cost of window cleaning Ewan. I bet your not too quick to tell your customers the profit you make, yet probably quite willing to explain your costs.

I see it no different to any type of supplier, be it window cleaning or food sales.

I doubt there is actually a huge demand for professional pole sales, so in effect the less you make the more expensive they are, with materials and manufacturing costs.

Only way pole costs are going to be low, is when you bulk buy material and manufactures time producing and mass produce. That will never happen with carbon poles. There will never be that much of a demand, to demand a mass production = lower costs.

[Ian_Giles]

Ewan,
Can't find anything to agree with you on with this topic....
I'm a window cleaner and have to buy poles for my system, I'd love to be able to buy them for pennies, and would also love to believe your cynical views in that manufacturers are ripping us off...mind you, I can think of a couple of suppliers that might fall into that category, but then again maybe not, as I'm well aware they spend a fortune developing their goods.
AS others have said, (inferred)  the window cleaning industry simply isn't big enough to have the kind of production lines in place to be able develop and supply carbon poles at bargain basement prices.
Take a look at the Unger carbon pole...bloody thing is a hugely expensive and over engineered product, no way would that ever compete on price with the likes of any of Alex's poles.
I hope that pole manufacturers are making a healthy profit, doing so will allow them to plough more money into further R&D, but the market isn't that big and therefore competition for that market will be intense, which further means that prices for poles are as competitive as they can be.
Vast companies like B&Q have far deeper pockets than all of the current window cleaning suppliers all lumped together, but can you really see the likes of them getting into serious pole development or even wanting to supply the handful of window cleaners out there that they might attract? Most of their window cleaning gear is strictly DIY anyway....
Did you see the price of that Dutch company's gear for internal WFP poles etc? And you think our home grown suppliers are expensive!?  
I was chatting to the guys at their stall at the cleaning show, I mentioned that their poles were very good, but that their goosenecks and brush assemblies were so heavy that it made a mockery of the gains made in their lightweight poles.
He didn't agree, he said that because of the lightness of their poles it made no difference...I walked away at that point, as he must be a numbnuts if he actually believed what he was spouting.

Perhaps these kind of suppliers rip us off with hugely overinflated prices, especially when compared to the likes of Gardiner poles and other home grown pole suppliers...which might also perhaps indicate that the prices currently being charged are not that bad at all....

nice to hear you have had sl2 for 18 months still debating whether to buy one my hxtel is ok after 12 months but sl2 is lighter which would be far eaiser for wear and tear on body what size do you have

I have the 35ft SL2 and love it, you have to get used to using a modular pole, but that is no biggy, I have both telescopic (fibreglass) and modular poles, but mostly prefer to use my SL2 (as does my girlfriend who works alongside me) Telescopic may be more convenient, but the advantages of the SL2 far outweigh them in most circumstances.

Ian

[Sean Dyer]

IN YOUR FACE EWAN lol

[GWCS]

Ian, you don’t agree that pole prices should be lower? So you will be happy to pay nearly £2,500 for 72ft pole? (If you need to buy one)

So basically when the poles prices do drop (because they can & will drop), I will resurrect this thread (if I can find it) and people can read again what they have posted.

All I read into this is some people jumping to the defence of manufacturers with a justification of why & how pole prices are what they are, based on liking the manufacture/product and general knowledge about economics and product development. All due respect but you don’t understand only the manufacturers do. All you can do is complain about the prices. Or in this case applaud the manufacturers.

I will say it again there too expensive, this market is growing and there is a lag in the reduction of prices for these poles. This is easily put to the test when next you part with money for a carbon fibre pole, how does it feel to part with so much money. Can you honestly say you are happy to pay the full price for that pole?

Why on earth would any current manufacture drop there prices and reduce there profits! They wouldn’t there’s no reason to and there certainly not much request for a drop in price from the consumer, not on here anyway.

Im not sticking up for pole prices..

BUT

would you be so accommodating to your customers if they requested a 50% price reduction for example?

I doubt it, you will tell them where to go (kindly) and deal with new customers who are willing to pay your prices.

Pole prices will only drop once there is greater competition amongst manufacturers, and lower costs all round, in materials and manufacturing costs and more end users wanting them.

This is how it is for every new product and service not just poles.

But if you want to start and petition and lobby all carbon pole manufacturers for cheaper prices, please do start one and I will be most willing to stick my name on it.

[Alex Gardiner]

Ewan,

Quote Alex Gardiner:

“To make a Carbon pole range really work you have to hold a carbon stock of about £80,000-£100,000,”

This is Retail price you are talking about Alex; otherwise you’re telling me you have possibly up to £500,000 worth of stock that you keep running out of. I don’t think so.

I like your SL-X Alex and I think you have addressed a couple of issues with poles for window cleaners. But I stand firm and say Carbon fibre poles are too expensive. All manufactures are to eager to explain there cost (although ambiguously) But are never eager to explain there profits! (Understandably) But the only thing that will change my mind about the price of these poles is a price drop.  

The figures you use above would indicate a 500% profit margin on Carbon Fibre poles. If this were true I would be a very happy individual   The prices I was talking about are trade prices not retail.

Currently we make a larger profit margin on most of our fibre glass Exel poles we sell than our Carbon Fibre ranges. If anything I can only see a price increase happening with our carbon fibre products rather than a reduction.

I realise that our profit margin is not going to be the same as some other firms, so I can only speak for our firm.

[trevor perry]

Ewan if you are so sure that we are being over charged for our poles and people are making 500% profit from them then i suggest you pack in window cleaning and start making poles for the rest of us and make yourself a fortune, although some of your posts do encourage a good debate most of your comments are just unfounded hot air without research to prove your conclusions.

[Pittmonkey]

Because that's how much they cost to produce, plus a little bit to keep the company afloat.

[Sapphire Window Cleaning]

Ewan would you drop the price you charge your customers just because they think your too expensive?

[leapstallbuildings]

Ewan,

Quote Alex Gardiner:

“To make a Carbon pole range really work you have to hold a carbon stock of about £80,000-£100,000,”

This is Retail price you are talking about Alex; otherwise you’re telling me you have possibly up to £500,000 worth of stock that you keep running out of. I don’t think so.

I like your SL-X Alex and I think you have addressed a couple of issues with poles for window cleaners. But I stand firm and say Carbon fibre poles are too expensive. All manufactures are to eager to explain there cost (although ambiguously) But are never eager to explain there profits! (Understandably) But the only thing that will change my mind about the price of these poles is a price drop.  

The figures you use above would indicate a 500% profit margin on Carbon Fibre poles. If this were true I would be a very happy individual   The prices I was talking about are trade prices not retail.

Currently we make a larger profit margin on most of our fibre glass Exel poles we sell than our Carbon Fibre ranges. If anything I can only see a price increase happening with our carbon fibre products rather than a reduction.

I realise that our profit margin is not going to be the same as some other firms, so I can only speak for our firm.

Spoken like a true manufacturer Alex, good comeback extinguish the talk of price reduction with a price increase.

I take it you referring to margin percentage with the fibreglass poles.

Alex I’m not entirely convinced that carbon fibre pole prices cannot be reduced, referring to all manufacturers and not just your poles. Being a manufacturer can you tell me why or solid reasons for the current asking prices of these poles?

(Just for the record I think you have done a great job with the SL-X)

If you don't want to pay that price, don't buy one.
Pretty simple really   

[Sapphire Window Cleaning]

Ewan would you drop the price you charge your customers just because they think your too expensive?

LOL, yes of course and I have

Is that why you are moaning about the price of carbon poles?
I go fishing and I use carbon poles for that, by all means I see people use fibreglass and cheap end carbon poles, they can hardly use them because of the weight.
I on the other hand I have no problems using them, fibregass poles cost £50-£150, my pole cost over £600.
See you get what you pay for.
It still baffles me as to the mentality of some window cleaners on here, they want to bring in £0000's per week, but they are not prepared to spend a few hundred quid on equipment.
You have to speculate to accumilate.



Matt

[GWCS]

No, there over priced

How do you base this statement? So far all i seem to read is peoples opinions but not actual factual figured calculations.

what figures are you actually working from.

[concept]

This thread has gone a bit belly up, I just wanted to question the costings behind them, as being new to the trade, they do seem incredibly expensive, however, I do want to invest in the best tools for my body and my business, and have to pay the going rate, which is what it is, and I can't change that.

Until someone comes up with a keenly priced alternative, it's pay your money, take your choice time.

Alex, thanks for the response, you didn't need to go into so much detail about your business, and I hope you didn't feel singled out, as it was not my intention to do so.

[concept]

aye 

now dont get me started on the price of brooms, i mean brushes...

[GWCS]

You’re a little to quick with your post GWCS, see my amended previous post

which one?
nothing relates to the question i asked  :

No, there over priced matt, and you don’t get what you pay for, is there such as thing as heavy carbon fibre!

Ewan would you drop the price you charge your customers just because they think your too expensive?

LOL, yes of course and I have

Ewan,

Quote Alex Gardiner:

“To make a Carbon pole range really work you have to hold a carbon stock of about £80,000-£100,000,”

This is Retail price you are talking about Alex; otherwise you’re telling me you have possibly up to £500,000 worth of stock that you keep running out of. I don’t think so.

I like your SL-X Alex and I think you have addressed a couple of issues with poles for window cleaners. But I stand firm and say Carbon fibre poles are too expensive. All manufactures are to eager to explain there cost (although ambiguously) But are never eager to explain there profits! (Understandably) But the only thing that will change my mind about the price of these poles is a price drop.  

The figures you use above would indicate a 500% profit margin on Carbon Fibre poles. If this were true I would be a very happy individual   The prices I was talking about are trade prices not retail.

Currently we make a larger profit margin on most of our fibre glass Exel poles we sell than our Carbon Fibre ranges. If anything I can only see a price increase happening with our carbon fibre products rather than a reduction.

I realise that our profit margin is not going to be the same as some other firms, so I can only speak for our firm.

Spoken like a true manufacturer Alex, good comeback extinguish the talk of price reduction with a price increase.

I take it you referring to margin percentage with the fibreglass poles.

Alex I’m not entirely convinced that carbon fibre pole prices cannot be reduced, referring to all manufacturers and not just your poles. Being a manufacturer can you tell me why or solid reasons for the current asking prices of these poles?

(Just for the record I think you have done a great job with the SL-X)

[ftp]

Ewan, I doubt you have even seen a Gardiners pole let alone used one. If you had done your googling properly you would find out that Gardiners already offer the best value carbon poles on the market so really I think you are picking on the wrong guy.
I would doubt very much that carbon is going to reduce in price in the foreseeable future - in fact the Sl2sections have shot up in price over the last year. People have already said if you don't want to spend the money then don't buy one it's as simple as that. If the demand wasn't there then Gardiners would stop making them as would everyone else who supplies the market.

[luther1]

Slightly off subject,but with a relative theme,i clean the windows for a large stainless steel tube manufacturer and showed him the frame on my Ionics system with an aim for  having a diy system in my new van while having it look professionally made,yet on a budget and he wanted £1700 (cash) to supply and make the frame. The only consolation being that he said the Ionics frame is acid dipped and not polished.If it were to be polished it would have a mirror finish. So,on top of the frame,i buy a tank,pump(s),controller etc etc. Probabably wouldn't save a fortune. I am certainly not fighting Ionics corner,however, if turnover is on a mass scale then quite obviously build prices are reduced.
Anyone Googled carbon tube manufacturers?

[luther1]

I should think research and development,rejection of prototypes etc must make up a significant cost. As long as people keep buying then the prices won't be reduced will they? Would VW reduce the cost of their (Transporter) vans so people who couldn't previously afford one suddenly find them obtainable? Thats not a dig at you Ewan as you do have a very valid point(s).

[Sean Dyer]

I should think research and development,rejection of prototypes etc must make up a significant cost. As long as people keep buying then the prices won't be reduced will they? Would VW reduce the cost of their (Transporter) vans so people who couldn't previously afford one suddenly find them obtainable? Thats not a dig at you Ewan as you do have a very valid point(s).

why do you charge what you do for window cleaning??

Customers can leave you if they want, they dont hve to demand a reason for every penny you charge them

And as if you lowered your prices

Behave

Are not enough forum members rising anymore that you must pick on suppliers now

Anyway you were mr.. what does it matter what it costs if its earning you money etc

[R W C]

Ewan would you drop the price you charge your customers just because they think your too expensive?

LOL, yes of course and I have

Is that why you are moaning about the price of carbon poles?
I go fishing and I use carbon poles for that, by all means I see people use fibreglass and cheap end carbon poles, they can hardly use them because of the weight.
I on the other hand I have no problems using them, fibregass poles cost £50-£150, my pole cost over £600.
See you get what you pay for.
It still baffles me as to the mentality of some window cleaners on here, they want to bring in £0000's per week, but they are not prepared to spend a few hundred quid on equipment.
You have to speculate to accumilate.



Matt

couldnt agree more

No, there over priced

How do you base this statement? So far all i seem to read is peoples opinions but not actual factual figured calculations.

what figures are you actually working from.

Well for a start, the weight of some (so called) carbon fibre poles.

It’s amazing what you can do when marketing a product, don’t you think!

Do you know what a Fusion is or a Glider for that matter just when can you call a wfp a Carbon Fibre WFP?

Silly question or is it!

by the way its Glyder