[concept]

Been thinking this one over, and it is a question I have to ask, and I am sure will be justified by those who know more about the industry and manufacture of poles than I...

Looking at the prices of poles for WFP, they seem incredibly expensive in comparison to poles for other trades, yet not too disimilar in design, give or take some clamps, and a couple of holes.

example:

16ft Harris Pole(weight unknown): £15
17ft Extel (Fibre Glass @ 1.45kg): £80
18ft Powerpole (Aluminium weight unknown): £275

Similarly, carbon fishing poles are inexpensive in comparison.

I guess my point, although I truly cant be bothered getting too far into it, is I can't believe the prices of poles just because they are for WFP. A simple adaption of a decorating pole makes a good pole for domestics, priced at around £15, so how can suppliers/manufacturers not replicate this kind of price? I know millions more Harris Poles will be sold than WFP poles, however, can that really justify the huge price difference?

Is it purely that there are not enough competitors in the market place, so prices can be whatever they fancy, or are our suppliers going to the wrong people for manufacture?!

Just felt like a moan up tonight lads n lassies, so feel free to shoot me down in flames as I am sure I will be! 

[ian1972]

bingo

[geefree]

I have said the very same thing since i started wfp,

And to top off your comments, you have to have them delivered and pay for that too!

Why there are no outlets countrywide ,where you can nip out and pick up a water fed clamped pole...is beyond me.

To be honest, they dont last any longer than a fishing, or Harris pole either.( everyday domestic poles)

and if people say they do...then they hardly use them.

[Window Washers]

supply and demand and time, these poles will come down in price the higher the demand and in time.

At the moment there are a few pole makers when someone looks into it then they will change the pricing and blow some people in half with prices ( I am not going to make poles by the way I do not have the time to look into it and the questions I see Alex get on here is enough to put off most people lol. None of the comments above are made at Alex in anyway as I use his poles, yet I would love his price to drop by half I cant see it happening this year 
limited supply will always mean higher prices....

[wizard]

Cost far too high, too many models on the market and some are obsolete as they only sell because they are cheap. It’s the lack of marketing experience the manufactories that is the problem; they compete with themselves for the same market. Big range is not a big supplier.

[Jeff Brimble]

I agree they are incredibly expensive.

Carbon fibre seems to be the choice material for the poles, so how much should a window cleaner pay for a 25ft telescopic carbon fibre? 

If you want high carbon content- £10/foot. the price is primarily  controlled by Japan and its not being helped by Airbus using so much of it in their planes.
Get used to the high prices for these poles as I dont think there is any room for reducing them.   the second hand market for fishing poles for fishing stays robust.

[Mike #1]

gardiners slx is value for money though 24ft hxtel £319 slx 22 £278 which would you buy , but have to agree they could be cheaper you can get a fishing pole really cheap now but more people fish i guess

[Smudger]

Hi there,

I have been in this industry, and i can say that you could easily build an Ali pole for around £40.00 (30ft) but thats the raw material cost + clamps, however just like us to our customers the manufacturer has to pay staff,tax get a building market the product etc..   and earn a living.   Also Harris poles and the like are very soft ali not the better standard used in example by Brodex.

Glassfibre i couild not comment on,   but i think carbon fibre poles are a reasonable price, having worked on F1 carbon fibre bits these are a huge price - the only diference maybe the quality of carbon used.


Darran

[concept]

supply and demand and time, these poles will come down in price the higher the demand and in time.

At the moment there are a few pole makers when someone looks into it then they will change the pricing and blow some people in half with prices ( I am not going to make poles by the way I do not have the time to look into it and the questions I see Alex get on here is enough to put off most people lol. None of the comments above are made at Alex in anyway as I use his poles, yet I would love his price to drop by half I cant see it happening this year 
limited supply will always mean higher prices....

The questions to Alex tend to be about clamps, black residue, adjustments etc etc, all things, that to me, seem crazy.

This is by no means a dig at Gardiners, I buy kit from them, and have had great advice from Alex on here, it's merely questioning poles in general, but as Alex seems to be at the forefront with it all, and has what seems like the most popular tool in the trade...

If I was a plumber, and I needed say an adjustable spanner, I could go to B+Q and buy their value brand one, at £2. That would do a job for me for so long, and I would expect it to be chucked after x amount of days/weeks/months, get what you pay for yeah?

Now, if I was to spend £10 on a Stanley one (or whoever), I would expect it to last me well, not have to constantly adjust it, or worry about residue off the handle, or need to adapt something to make it fit a certain bolt...?!

Seems there is a premium price being asked for the equioment, from ALL suppliers, that simply isn't up to the job.

[Mike #1]

spanners have been around over 100yrs so all the problems have been sorted carbon fibre poles and all that goes with them not so long , unfortunately these things take time just wished it was sorted now

[Smudger]

I may be wrong but in manufacturing/machining carbon you always get dust/residue -  i think its the nature of the material.

Darran

[Ian_Giles]

Carbon fibre poles for window cleaning are expensive and personally I cannot see that changing any time soon...mores the pity...
But there is a big difference between a carbon fishing pole and a carbon WFP pole, the fishing poles are simply not robust enough by comparison.
I've both the SL1 and the SL2, I was forever breaking the SL1, the SL2 however is way more robust.
After 12 months of continuous use with the SL1 it had to be replaced, and that  pole was an adapted fishing pole mostly.
The SL2 was made specifically for WFP, the make up and design of the way in which the carbon fibre is wrapped etc is very different, it's much tougher.
Mine has now been in use for over 18 months and I've only replaced one section and it really is used extensively.

And don't forget that those who develop these poles also have to spend a lot of time and money on R&D.

People moan about the clamps or black residue and so on, but do you really expect perfection from the very onset??
A good job Ford didn't look at the model T and decide that perfection had been achieved eh?

I'll bet that neither Alex or anyone else supplying a similar product could reduce their product by a significant degree and still be solvent.

I've also got a cheapo fibreglass pole, bendy as er....heck I've had to glue the clamps back in place, continually having to adjust them, hands get full of invisible fibreglass splinters that drive you insane!! And even though it is only about 16ft extended, if I'm having to work at an awkward angle it is heavy and unwieldy in comparison to my SL2.
I've also got the Unger aluminium pole...forever consigned to the shed, never to see the light of day again.

Harris poles? If you like them and they suit you then great, but they really are a crap pole by any comparison to a decent carbon pole.
If my carbon poles had to be replaced every year at a cost of £300 or so then I'd do it, no question, and I'd not bother with the much cheaper fishing pole option either as those poles are simply not robust enough. Even though you could  buy 3 a year and still be cheaper than a WFP specific carbon pole.

Yep, they are expensive, but worth every penny so far as I am concerned.


Ian.

[Mike #1]

nice to hear you have had sl2 for 18 months still debating whether to buy one my hxtel is ok after 12 months but sl2 is lighter which would be far eaiser for wear and tear on body what size do you have

[Alex Gardiner]

Ian has posted well, I was typing this while he was posting so if I cover some similar points I apologise 

Anyone who sells a pole whether it be a Harris pole, a Powerpole, a prolong or an SL-X is doing so for a profit  . The profit margins on most poles is far less than many retailers would be happy with, this is due to high development and manufacturing cost. I imagine that B&Q is on a higher profit margin with the Harris pole than many WFP retailers are making on poles. This is not justification, just fact. To make a Carbon pole range really work you have to hold a carbon stock of about £80,000-£100,000, couple this investment with the facilities investment in handling and assembling the stock, the staffing of such a premises and you can see why pole manufacturers/retailers need to make a mark-up. On top of this to develop an injection moulded clamp range costs in excess of £20,00 before you have made/bought a single clamp. All of these have to be factored in to your business' ability to keep trading. Realistically you will not make a bottom line return on a new pole range for a couple of years, by which time you are bringing out another one!

Telescopic poles have been readily available for many years, but traditionally these have been used/suitable for occasional light work. As such they are cheap items made of cheap materials which will made in batches of 200,000 at a time, by probably just one or two factories in the world and then marketed around the world to billions of potential clients. If any WFP retailer (even Ionics') attempted to build 200,000 poles they would simply go out of business. Even Exel's telescopic poles originally were designed for janitorial low level cleaning and the Universal range were designed as tent poles for the military - generally receiving very little use once in position.

Even within the decorating pole market (Harris territory) you can get much better made poles, interestingly the price starts to go up because they are better designed, use better materials and are sold in much lower numbers. I have seen the equivalent to a Harris pole, but much better, for sale at prices in excess of £70. Useless for our needs though as they are too heavy due to the better quality components.

Here we come to the rise of Carbon Fibre in our market. This is now becoming common place and yet is a very expensive material to produce and buy in. Due to being a composite material it does have wear issues (ie. it does wear!) and this will always produce residue. The carbon fibre fishing pole industry is simply enormous and WFP will never be this size as their are more anglers in the UK than WFP'ers worldwide. One problem that we had in the beginning with the Super-Lite was convincing a quality factory to build for us in such small amounts (3-400 poles a year). They usually like to build a minimum of about 200 units a month for outside clients. The other option is going to China. In reality Carbon production in China is now nearly expensive as staying in Europe. It is also a known fact that the quality is not up to European standards.

At the end of the day if the entire WFP market is a rip-off, then others will come along with new products at bargain prices that will out perform the current batch of poles. The reason that Harris, B&Q and others have not done this yet is because the market is too small to invest in. Even the most profitable (published) pole firms are really small fry to most serious retail firms. I know of corner shops that pull in more profit than some of our 'big' WFP names.

As window cleaners we are at the cutting edge of a new industry which although was conceived of several decades ago is now only really starting to develop. New products, new techniques, new problems are going to part of this industry for quite a while. We as window cleaners have two choices. -  1. Stick with it and develop and grow with the industry or 2. Quit and go back to ladders where life was a lot simpler.

I know which one I'm going to do  

[Mike #1]

 thanks alex that has given me a far greater insight

[Carl2009]

Great, informal reply. Good to get an insider's view on things.

[drwindows]

Yeah but the harris pole is sold in massive volume compared to wfp's surely.

To make money and stay in business, you either need to sell a lot of something and make a small profit on each item, or sell less but make a bigger profit on each.

B&Q sell squillions of their harris poles, wfp makers do not because there are only so many window cleaners.  Therefore, they are more expensive.

[free2flow]

Just to bring up the point about fishing poles. The pole that I have seen mentioned on this forum and others suitable for wfp is about £60/70. This is a very cheap pole by fishing standards. Although it is designed for carp fishing, you get what you pay for and if it breaks, which it most likely will at some point having hooked a large carp then don't be surprised. There are roach poles which can cost over £200, and the average roach weighs about 1 1/2 lbs. So, my point is, as with everything, you get what you pay. The higher the cost, the better materials used in production.

[ftp]

Don't forget the harris pole is aimed at the diy market. B&Q could afford to sell it at a loss provided the customer buys all his other materials from the store. When you buy a Harris pole have a good look at the quality (there isn't any).

[leapstallbuildings]

Ian has posted well, I was typing this while he was posting so if I cover some similar points I apologise 

Anyone who sells a pole whether it be a Harris pole, a Powerpole, a prolong or an SL-X is doing so for a profit  . The profit margins on most poles is far less than many retailers would be happy with, this is due to high development and manufacturing cost. I imagine that B&Q is on a higher profit margin with the Harris pole than many WFP retailers are making on poles. This is not justification, just fact. To make a Carbon pole range really work you have to hold a carbon stock of about £80,000-£100,000, couple this investment with the facilities investment in handling and assembling the stock, the staffing of such a premises and you can see why pole manufacturers/retailers need to make a mark-up. On top of this to develop an injection moulded clamp range costs in excess of £20,00 before you have made/bought a single clamp. All of these have to be factored in to your business' ability to keep trading. Realistically you will not make a bottom line return on a new pole range for a couple of years, by which time you are bringing out another one!

Telescopic poles have been readily available for many years, but traditionally these have been used/suitable for occasional light work. As such they are cheap items made of cheap materials which will made in batches of 200,000 at a time, by probably just one or two factories in the world and then marketed around the world to billions of potential clients. If any WFP retailer (even Ionics') attempted to build 200,000 poles they would simply go out of business. Even Exel's telescopic poles originally were designed for janitorial low level cleaning and the Universal range were designed as tent poles for the military - generally receiving very little use once in position.

Even within the decorating pole market (Harris territory) you can get much better made poles, interestingly the price starts to go up because they are better designed, use better materials and are sold in much lower numbers. I have seen the equivalent to a Harris pole, but much better, for sale at prices in excess of £70. Useless for our needs though as they are too heavy due to the better quality components.

Here we come to the rise of Carbon Fibre in our market. This is now becoming common place and yet is a very expensive material to produce and buy in. Due to being a composite material it does have wear issues (ie. it does wear!) and this will always produce residue. The carbon fibre fishing pole industry is simply enormous and WFP will never be this size as their are more anglers in the UK than WFP'ers worldwide. One problem that we had in the beginning with the Super-Lite was convincing a quality factory to build for us in such small amounts (3-400 poles a year). They usually like to build a minimum of about 200 units a month for outside clients. The other option is going to China. In reality Carbon production in China is now nearly expensive as staying in Europe. It is also a known fact that the quality is not up to European standards.

At the end of the day if the entire WFP market is a rip-off, then others will come along with new products at bargain prices that will out perform the current batch of poles. The reason that Harris, B&Q and others have not done this yet is because the market is too small to invest in. Even the most profitable (published) pole firms are really small fry to most serious retail firms. I know of corner shops that pull in more profit than some of our 'big' WFP names.

As window cleaners we are at the cutting edge of a new industry which although was conceived of several decades ago is now only really starting to develop. New products, new techniques, new problems are going to part of this industry for quite a while. We as window cleaners have two choices. -  1. Stick with it and develop and grow with the industry or 2. Quit and go back to ladders where life was a lot simpler.

I know which one I'm going to do  

Good reply Alex.  The numbers you come up with don't surprise me.  One of my customers in a company that works in moulding.  One of the managers was telling me one day the sort of cost with just setting up a mould.  Obviously, the larger the run the more it pays for itself but smaller runs would mean a higher product price - especially if the product is likely to be succeeded 2 - 3 years down the line.
Although I do have some clamping issues with the SLX (particularly the no1 clamp), it is still far and away the best pole I have used.  Indeed, I may have been struggling without a light pole as after a year of WFP, I started to get a problem with elbow and shoulder.