[Joe H]

I think Simon has started (yet again) a very interesting thread.

My two penneth is

One of the aims of the NCCA is "to establish MINIMUM professional standards within the carpet and soft furnishing cleaning industry".
It fulfills that.

None of its aims state it will get loads of work via big contracts or individual domestics for its members, although it does pass enquiries thro its office and website to "local" cleaners. Like some of the others, I have benefitted from that.

Currently about 500 paid members (I think) - thats about £100k income plus training course income.
3 full time staff I believe (all in the office in Leicester), the rest "volunteers". Obviously those doing training courses will be paid.
So not a lot of money to if they were to advertise nationally in papers/tv etc - go nowhere.

Any "new" association formed will face a similar problem, 50 or say 100 members from the forums (cause not everyone will join) and then a hard slog to get the name known amongst carpet cleaners which will generate income by more members.

[clinton]

Joe

Thought they would have had more than 500 members

Does not seem that many really when you mention it..

Its going to cost the individuals a lot more for a new set up then and wonder who will get the full time jobs running it :

[mark shannon]

On reflection I think Mick's gotta point the NCCA is what it is and ain't  going to change quickly if at all.

The association Doug and Pete are proposing will have from what I can gather a more aggressive sales and education program. I think with the clearly passionate individuals involved it will succeed and wish them the best of luck.

However just talking about it doesn't make everyone's opposing opinion negative.

mark

[Nigel_W]

Starting a new organisation from scratch seems much harder than using the NCCA. It would make far more sense to coordinate a large group of people to shell out £230 to join the NCCA and make a point of turning up at the AGM to instigate  and insist on change. This is the kind of revolution that is required to change the status quo. A bit of new blood on the board and a revitalised program to increase the membership would open the way forward for change.

Personally, I feel hesitant about criticising the NCCA.  I pay my dues. but so far I have never been to an AGM or participated in any NCCA events. In many respects they do quite well on such  limited membership. I do know that if I want or need change then I must turn up and make my voice heard. It seems I am not alone in this apathetic approach. It would be easier to support the idea of a new association if there had been a concerted group effort  to support the NCCA and encourage change. If we all joined and turned up to actively support the NCCA it would make a huge difference.   


Nigel

[Simon Gerrard]

Nigel,

Well said, Sir!
You have hot the nail exactly on the head. As it stands at the moment Derek West is planning a new association and so too is Doug Holloway and Pete Sweeney. Yes, they may get some members joining them, but all that will achieve in the end is fracture the industry yet more and nobody needs that.

The best way forward is as you suggest, work to get a large group of people to join the NCCA as a block and then attend the AGM en-masse and demand reform. That is so much more possible rather than seeking to undermine or sideline an organisation that if nothing else has established roots in the industry.

Simon

[mark shannon]

Majority of members including me have never been to a AGM 

Think they had to cancel one last year because of lack of support, must be soul destroying for the committee who seem very committed.

mark 

[derek west]

maybe it would be cheaper to put in an offer and buy the NCCA out,  it would be relatively easy to turn it around.  which begs the question, "why aren't they prepared to re invent themselves," maybe there waiting for an offer, i'd put my £10k in for a small percentage.

the foundations they command are cryiing out to be taken advantage of.

maybe an approach for the organisation side as apposed to the training side would be financially viable for a group of money men.

saves pssin about tryin to change it from the inside, like that'll ever happen :

food for thought.

derek

[robert meldrum]

500 paying members from such an apathetic industry seems not too bad. My concern which I've aired before and will probably get arrows flying again in my direction is quite simple............
Training is a massive industry, but in order to train you must first of all become a qualified trainer and there must be assessors to monitor the training being delivered.......
Without that you have no credibility in the eyes of the Insurance World or the Awarding Authorities or indeed potential customers.
Just because you are good at communicating and demonstrating is innadequate and whether you take money or payment in kind or not you have no legitimacy.
If however you are a qualified industry trainer, eg, IICRC as is the case with the best known trainers in the UK carpet cleaning industry you can test and certificate candidates, but I'm sure you all know that
 

[Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)]

Simon

If you have taken offence at my comments, then there isn't much I can do about that other than assure you that it wasn't my intention.

But my point remains, why don't we wait and see  - you never know we may end up with something that we all can be proud of, rather than the NCCA which everyone moans about to some extent or another. We are all so apathetic towards it, that even though we can talk on here about changing it from the inside, I'm sure we are also aware that, with the best will in the world, it aint gonna happen.

I know the people involved in the new set up and I'm aware of the direction they are heading and that excites me far more than the NCCA spending thousands of pounds coming up with a new logo, that then gets voted out because the establishment doesn't like change.

Steve

[Simon Gerrard]

Steve,
I took offence because you were suggesting that my less than views on the merits of starting a new association are nothing more than sour grapes and that really I can't wait for the project to fail so I say, 'I told you so.' I hadn't even mentioned Clean Association, indeed the question was, is there a need at all for any new association. Just because I have my doubts, and surely I am entitled to them, that doesn't mean what you twisted them into implying and I think you were out o order for that. ?
But hey, you're a nice guy, give us a kiss

Simon

[Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)]

 

[Dave_Lee]

Dave most men don't have your dedication to looking after themselves, your are an exception to the rule

but watch those last 2 years..... if you have  the urge to get an allotment or start moaning about how young policemen look...... seek help immediately

Ok, Mike I'll take note of your advice, dont know about an allotment though, just got myself a road and mountain bikes.
Dave.

[derek west]

so does this mean that theres only me simon, ahem sorry, mr gerrard and glyn left  
derek

[Joe H]

Major problems for any organisation - current or new.

1 - getting carpet cleaners to join. We are very much individuals and look how divided we are here on this forum. So how is any one organisation going to get the numbers to generate a decent income.

2 - getting awareness out to the public. Been tried before, will take tens of thousands of pounds, and many of them, to make a small impact, and that initial impact needs to be sustained.

3 - its been said only about 3% of the UK population have their carpets cleaned. That means we are a dirty nation! How do you educate the population of the UK about the benefits of clean and healthier carpets? That would take a massive effort lasting years.

I think those 3 reasons alone is sufficient to say that, IMO, no organisation is going to make the full advancement that many deem necessary.
And the more associations there are means that any effort, no matter how passionate, is not going to make a massive difference to the whole.

Some unified action COULD work to make some impact.

The NCCA has been around how long? 40 years is it.
They have focused on "minimum" training, updating its members on latest developments (they do hold training days), ensuring its members have PL and treatment risk insurance (thats a good thing isnt it?), provide an advisory service for its members and handle complaints. (thats 4 of its listed aims - the 5th being each member adheres to the motto "service with integrity").
All the above things are positive.
Those are the aims of the NCCA (taken from their literature). No where do they state they will make the population of the UK aware of their existence so how can they be called rotten for not achieving what they have not set out to do.

If those with the passion to strive for customer awareness should, perhaps, approach the NCCA to see if a separate "arm" could work to develop that, hopefully bringing in new members at the same time.
The NCCA has credability, it has contacts, it has an infrastructure.... so why not use them?

[Simon Gerrard]

The major problem with this new association, CLEAN, is that it is all being done behind closed doors, in secret and we, the very people who it is hoped will give it life are kept out of the loop. It's as if the guy's running it aren't interested in finding out what people might, or might not want from any new association because they know better than us what we want.
Wouldn't it be so much better to come CLEAN and put what is proposed out for discussion. The ideas may well be very good indeed, but others may not, but there will be other people's views and ideas that could come to the fore and make the whole thing better and I think it is a huge mistake to forgo the opportunity of building something that we all feel able to support, rather than have something foisted on us from above which if you think about it is nothing more than people get from the NCCA.
This new association is supposed to be dynamic and forward thinking, but not it seems forward thinking enough to realise that any new organisation has to be as inclusive as possible for it to stand any chance of succeeding.
Believe it or not, I'm not actually against this project, what I am against is the way that it is being built, behind closed doors. I also worry that some of the personalities involved may only be in it for the money and if that is the case then it is doomed from the outset.

Simon

[gwrightson]

You know what Simon,

That's exactly what I was thinking , In it for what they can get out of it, not really for the good of its potential members, sorry to be so blunt.
I cannot see how another organisation can, or would want to benefit its members simply by having another so called standards name.
Why would any one want to invest time and money to benefit others? Sorry this sort of person is very rare indeed, no matter what way you look at it .
Can they guarantee extra work for its members? I doubt it.
How can they assure its potential custys of a first class service by its members? They cant.
How with out the investment of vast amounts of money can they get it recognised. They cant.

But , What I fail to understand is, Why do we need another body? because no matter what you may say Joe public isn't that bothered and even if they was, we already have recognised bodys and it would not make one scrap of difference if I said to them ." yes I am a member of the NCCA the IICRC or Woolsafe or TACCA  or I have degree,s in thermo nuclear carpet cleaning

The customer wants a decent job for a fair price, simples really , and providing you are competent and you dont rip them off you will succeed.

Geoff. 
 

[Simon Gerrard]

Geoff,

Well said.
The trouble is these would-be leaders of a new association claiming to represent the carpet cleaning industry think so little of their prospective future members that they can't even be bothered to consult with them and put their plans in front of them and say, 'What do you think? If we did this would you be interested in joining?' From that you would get a range of differing answers and views and from that would come even better ideas that would make the whole scheme more effective and thus draw in even more support. Instead what we have is a self appointed committee of people deciding in secret the form and function of an association they expect us all to sign up to even though we have been ignored right up to the point where they want to open our wallets.

If they really cared about the carpet cleaning industry they would be bending over backwards to make an association based on what its members wanted from an association and not something they decided we wanted, which if you think about it is the number one complaint about the NCCA, that everything is done from on high.


Simon

[daysdeepclean]

Simon, What if they are in such early stages that they themselves haven't really got anything to tell it's would be members? Perhaps it's too early for transparency?


 

[Mike Osbourne]

Anyway Simon I thought you were banned?

[richy27]

zzzz   by the time people have stopped chatting about this the ncca will be another 25 years older.  Richard sleeping zzzz