[Simon Gerrard]

There's been much talk lately about new associations. Derek West has mentioned it and Pete Sweeney and others are putting together one.
The question is;
1) Is there a real yearning on the part of the average carpet cleaner for another association to rival the NCCA?
2) If so, why?
3) If there were to be a new association, what would you want from it that you cannot get from the NCCA?
4) What would persuade you to join a new association?

I'm not trying to start an argument on this issue, I'm just interested in what the driving forces are behind peoples' desire for something new.

Simon

[robert meldrum]

The only real motive has to be MONEY and there's nothing wrong with that as the time, effort and investment will be considerable.

Having no knowledge of what's proposed we can only guess.

An association ( if big enough ) could have it's membership trained to a uniform ( on paper ) standard which might make it easier to land National contracts and be accepted by Insurance Companies for Flood / Restoration work.

The major problem in my opinion would be the need to have everyone using the same products and methods due to the individual costs.

But I could be way off the mark.

I was involvbed with ALLTEC and FRANKLINS who both failed to achieve anything worth while in their attempts at a National Alliance of Cleaners and the more recent attempt by Solutions ended similarly.


Apathy RULES in carpet cleaning circles which is a pity but it's the way it is.

[derek west]

i disagree with the money aspect all though that is the end result, so i'm not disagreeing with mr meldrum, its hard to explain in a post, making the money is my job, having an org to reassure my custy, which in turn helps me  land the job is paramount for me. and is what TACCA is all about, giving your members the edge over your competitors.

also making it easier to get insurance, and being part of a group of members to be proud of, in other words not just any tom dick and harry who can conjur up the mem fee.

maybe some benefits like discounts with certain suppliers, and finally a fair and lucrative referal system.

all the above is what TACCA is trying to and will achieve. amen to that.

derek

[daysdeepclean]

I think that what I would look for would be an association that advertised on the TV, newspapers etc etc to help it become a household name like "Vax", "Rug Doctor" and other names we often hear our customers mention.

If I answered the phone and was asked if I was a member of the NCCA nearly every phone call, I'd be signing up right away. I've never ever been asked and I have mentioned it to a lot of customers when I was looking at joining the NCCA, but I always got that blank look!

[Mike Halliday]

The only real motive has to be MONEY  

 how can they be motivated by money? the amount of effort these sort of things take, they would make more money devoting the time to building thier own business.

if you look at what really motivate people you will find money very low down on the list, ego, power and ambition rank a lot higher. look at politicians do they go into politics because they want to help the people or are then enticed by the power or a sense that they in some way are better than the rest of us, so need to 'help' us

but I'm not saying anyone mentioned lately has this god complex but I think some people have an over-inflated self opinion and need to wind in their necks a bit

[Simon Gerrard]

The way I see it is when an association sets out to directly generate sales then it ceases to be an association and becomes in effect a co-operative. The problem is that unless you have very strict entry criteria then you cannot offer a uniform level of service to any would be national client and that would be the number one thing on their list of concerns when entering into any contract. You can't do that if you have a diverse group of people, with vastly different skill levels, some trained, others not and some equipped with nothing more than a £285.00 + vat Karcher Puzzi at one end of the scale and others with hi-performance truck mounted cleaning systems.

If you have a group of people all similarly trained and all with similar equipment then, like a franchise you can offer the requisite level of uniformity regardless of location.
An association should represent the interests of its members by suggesting to the public and commercial sectors that all of its members are well trained professional people, people the public can trust to deliver a high quality product. To go a step further and attempt to sell your members service and generate sales on their behalf is deeply problematic.

I can't think of an association that does go that far. Yes, have a website, yes, do national advertising to develop interest and awareness of carpet cleaning and your members services and then let the would be customer choose.
The best example of this was Prochem's Proclean Association which was heavily advertised in YP and magazines and gave extra credibility to its members by displaying the Proclean logo on their advertising but didn't seek to make the sale on behalf of its members.

Simon

[Goldfinch PCS]

Oh boy, here we go. First how can we be planning an alternative when -
1) There is a negative reaction by most towards proper training.
2) Negative towards standard practices
3) Negative towards Insurance
etc. etc.

How many would attend a customer service training event, or a sales training event or marketing training event?
Who would like to go through similar training routine line Franchises so that they can have proven methods instilled in them?

Insurance work? Well if you get the necessary qualifications (mostly BICS, Woolsafe, HVAC and IICRC) then you can put your company in for tenders.

I think the reason why the NCCA isn't effective is because we don't become members and lobby it. If we are members of an organisation and it isn't representing us then we would leave or demand a refund. Unless that organisation wants to go under it would have to act on our requests.

So lets push for more members and get more of us joining the NCCA and then we lobby the NCCA to represent us properly. Far more effective than trying to start a new organisation.

Or an alternative is to Join the IICRC and leave the NCCA and let the IICRC work on our behalf.  If they don't we lobby them, but with their International presence they wouldn't want to be seen as failing so we might get better results.

But one thing I do fee is that we need better publicity on a national basis and greater awareness and customer education.

Then again I guess there would still be people on here complaining even if we did get all we demanded. Why? Simply because they aren't members.

 

[mark shannon]

I for one enjoy a chat, advise and a loose association with my fellow cleaners and help out where I see fit.

However to be honest I am not a team player and enjoy working most of the time alone.

Personally and i think a great many cleaners dont want to all work to the same imposed standards, its just not why they are about.

The NCCA are OK am a member and get work that at least covers fees. However to be honest am only a member for whats in it for me. Which must be true of most members considering the appalling turnout for AGMs. Pay my fees and they dont bother me.

MARK

[Neil Williams]

This is a slightly amended version of what I posted some time ago on a similar topic.
The biggest organisation for window cleaners is called FWC (Federation of Window Cleaners).
Some years ago they lost their way on all fronts, and on the back of that numerous window cleaners got together (including myself) to create the very thing that window cleaners wanted and APWC (Association of Professional Window Cleaners) was created.
Oh there was loads and loads of support for this up until the moment the thing went live. We had 2 major players in the industry involved too but come the day we said membership was based on certain criteria and the cost was around the £100 per year region, getting people to join up was literally the p-ss in the wind scenario.
Amazingly the membership cost included an insurance policy (specially arranged) that would cover death and injury and loss of earnings, this would have cost easily 3 times the cost of membership if bought by the individual outside the APWC.
I won't go into all the details of benefits but this year the APWC was wound up due to lack of support.
On the positive side at least the FWC got the required kick up the backside and started to sort itself out, albeit membership of that organisation is drying up week by week.
Sadly whilst the trade wether it be window cleaning or carpet cleaning is unregulated then other than a handful of dedicated people, membership is going to be very limited. Yet the best bit about this is that those who are not members will still be asking what the trade organisation is doing about this, that and the other, yet they don't want to pay into it

The only true way this will work is if everyone is trained in the same methods and use the same solutions, chemicals, techniques etc. And that's never going to happen

[Mike Osbourne]

Mark

I think you have hit the nail on the head really.

Why do people leave J.O.B.s and become carpet cleaners, I think it's more to do with being your own boss and doing what you want for your business. When you are part of something bigger compromise and conformity are part of the deal.

I also think that you only have to look at forums to see the way things likely to go.

But I really do hope I'm wrong on this one as I'd like to see Dave and others project succeed. What really puts me off is usually though, it's just one big ego trip with some one calling the shots. No thanks I'll get a job if I wanted that.

[Goldfinch PCS]

See I told you.

No one wants to be apart of any standard whatsoever, too many want to do it however they see fit. But the requirements of the NCCA and IICRC are basic as I see it. One training course and a insurance for your business which you should have. So why so such huge objections?

What I think the NCCA and IICRC should do is be more proactive for their current respective members. And when the work picks for it's member then the members will sell the organisation, I guess then everyone (almost everyone) will want to join.

Then they could double their joining fees.

[mark shannon]

Goldfish has a point why reinvent the wheel

The egos should join the NCCA and make changes, the associations crying out for new blood who WANT to get involved.

mark

[Mark Lane-Matthews]

I completley agree with Mark.The NCCA is all ready in place so change things from within the NCCA if your not happy, rather than go through the whole slog of setting up new associations which just does not make sense 

[robert meldrum]

Well said Mark

But egotists want to the queen bee and have everyone adopt them as their super hero so they will shout loudly about how wonderful they are and give the impression that they and only they have the magic formula.

Now...........that kind of evangelism appeals to many who want a figurehead / hero and if someone is condemning the establishment and offering another way, they will get followers..................for a while !

Nothing is perfect and nothing will ever be perfect.

[Goldfinch PCS]

Nice to see clear heads thinking on here. I strongly feel that the NCCA should join up with the IICRC this would give them more strength. If the NCCA was as strong as the IICRC I don't believe Paul Pierce would have moved.

But the key is to lobby both these organisations. Simple things they can do like:
1) Get access to the press to promote carpet cleaning benefits to home owners and healthier home environment - getting to the press shouldn't be that hard, it doesn't have to be full page spreads or front page articles. But it has to be continuous and informative. They could try local press and magazines then move up.

2) Create a leads portal that  members can buy into, like Service Magic and others does here in the UK and the US. This would generate serious income for the organisations and then they would increase membership numbers and price.

3) Do a consumer magazine instead of just a members magazine and do a mail shot with one of the quality Sunday papers, this way they are sharing the distribution bill so everything becomes cost effective. We could then advertise in these magazines or write articles for the mag.

4) Forge links with facilities managers so that CCs looking to acquire commercial contracts have a better chance to contact the decision makers. Also the FMs can have a readily available portal to advertise tenders or offer CCs work.

5) Work with it's current members to engage the public - eg. They could have an agreement with participating members, where customer win something by booking through there site. At the moment many CCs are doing free clean offers of varied nature, this could be done on a national scale by the NCCA/IICRC and members who want to participate.

These things aren't difficult to put in place and I am sure you guys have more ideas. All it takes is willingness and co-operation. BUT WE NEED TO LOBBY THE CURRENT ORGANISATIONS TO ACT. Not Create New Ones

[Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)]

Considering that no information whatsoever has been issued yet by any new association, I fail to understand the negative comments being aired by people on this forum.

We are all entitled to our opinions, but until we know the details we are all just speculating.

You never know, we just might benefit from a new organisation - as far as changing existing organisations are concerned - don't come on here talking about it, just do it - or maybe it's not as simple as you all might think.

It's very easy to criticise when you have been in business a long time, have a loyal client base and don't worry too much where the next job is coming from. But maybe some carpet cleaners aren't at that stage yet, maybe they would welcome an organisation that was striving to educate the public or trying to muscle into some of the national contracts that franchises have a stranglehold on.

All I keep reading on here is how this or that won't work because........... so and so tried it and no-one was interested or that can't possibly work because we are all independants.

For years all I have ever read on here is negative comments relating to the NCCA and now we have the possibility of a new association and the negative comments are even worse and it hasn't even been officially launched yet.

Why don't we wait and see how it is structured and how it might benefit us, then we can make an informed decision.


Steve

[Goldfinch PCS]

Well Steve,

I wasn't aware these guys were seriously doing this. I thought it was more of a suggestion.

Well I welcome new ideas, what I wouldn't want to see is an organisation that's been form just to rebel or one that's formed by spoil school boys who can't or wont conform so they try to teach themselves or become disruptive (GOT MY DRIFT)

I am not negative towards the NCCA or IICRC just want them to be more proactive, I really don't think they are and it seems they would rather us to join and then do their marketing, which I feel is wrong.

[Ricky M]

Steve B , well said , Lots and Lots of Negs from ppl that dont fully know what they are neging about unless there in the minds of ten or so ppl ( I doubt ). NO Facts NO Figures NO structure and NO Direction has been given as of yet as far as Im aware , yes there is lots of speculation but its merely speculation .

a Fellow CC said " there are lots of clicks " he was right yet we all do a similar job with in the industry,

Its just ashame really , but we are only human and we are all aloud an opinion , no matter how much of a twisted neg it may be

 

[mark shannon]

Sorry chaps I have respect for what you guys are trying to do and may join if invited.

However reading back i can only see people talking over the subject in a level headed way looking for a way forward. CCs have historically been reluctant to join associations.

Cant see the posts full of "Twisted negatives", just maybe the talent involved MAY be better turning round the NCCA.

mark

[Simon Gerrard]

The responses have been pretty much as I expected - little interest in a new association.

When Glynn and I took over Truck Mounters we made it an association, the Truck Mounted Carpet Cleaners Association. Our first thoughts were to make it a full blown association and go all out to get national contracts and share out the work with the members. We looked very carefully at this and quickly concluded that it wasn't a realistic proposition, not least because of the sheer amount of time and money it takes to get something like that going and it have beneficial to all of the members whilst at the same time running your own business . The truth is setting out to directly generate sales is not the role of an association, to create interest in your members services and let the consumer agree the sale direct with the member is.
We're developing a TMCCA website which our members can promote on their websites, with a link to the TMCCA website and other advertising material and then see if the members see a benefit in it and take it from there and all this is for free.
If you want to take things further than that you then have the problem of how to ensure uniform service and quality to the standard of the franchise operations and with a diverse group of people all with different skill levels, experience and training, all serving the same clients in different parts of the country.
The word Apathy rings particularly true, as does the notion that the NCCA is the best vehicle to bring about a truly effective association, not least because they have been in existence for 41 years and are well established.
Simon