[Totus]

Wouldn't knowingly undercut anyone. At the end of the day i wouldn't want to take food off the table for him and his family.

However, if they haven't been about for a while and the customers says that they've disappeared i don't have a problem.

I charge what i think is fair and never budge on my quote. Undercutting just devalues you and your business, so many people do it on the cheap.....no insurance etc which allows them to charge less, but you get what you pay for in the end.

[TonyD]

Well I'm based in the same area as PCNW so have an interest in how he gets work from "my area's".  Here's how I see it..
I've learnt from other businesses that is usually works out better financially in a service trade to market yourself as the quality service rather than the poundshop.   Even with local businesses like this openly admitting they build rounds by undercutting and giving a price so low that it would need to be raised later to make it viable, I still stick to my methods of pricing what I feel is a fair wage for the job, no underpricing, no overpricing, just what I estimate is the right price.

I don't see the logic in having to raise the price later, surely you can then be beat by someone who canvasses in your area who's doing the same thing, and the circle goes on.... 
I'd rather aim to win the customers who are interested in quality, reliable services and who aren't daft enough or tight enough to believe price is the main focus when choosing someone to work on their home.  You're more likely to keep these customers when someone knocks them with a price that's half what you charge, because they value the service they get on other factors than price.   That's why when I canvass I go in clean branded workwear, hand over a card before I've even got the first sentence out and before offering the price I get across a sentence about the professional way I work.  Then they have the option of choosing me because of wanting a  low price OR quality. 

Just last week I canvassed an area where 2 different cleaners had been charging £4 for detached houses, not huge but plenty of glass.  I priced at over £8 and got plenty of customers who wanted better than the unreliable service they'd had before.  So the main reason I won those customers was reliability NOT price.  Not every customer wants the cheapest service, some just want better.  Go canvassing on that road and try to offer a knock down price and you'll see that approach doesn't work.

[dazmond]

your just a young blagger danny boy who just likes to stir it up

[TonyD]

Also, I don't hold anything against someone who markets their services by undercutting, it's a tried and tested method of building business, just like supermarkets offering a "loss leader" to get people through the doors.  BUT, it's the type of customer that it attracts that makes me choose a different method of building customers.  

I'd rather do 50 houses for £8 rather than 100 for £4.  It'll take longer to get the customers, but the round and working hours are obviously worth a lot more, and those customers who choose values other than cost alone are much more likely to stay loyal when a cheaper cleaner comes knocking

[TonyD]

I'm off out now, to do my new road of 12 x £8 houses (so far), I suppose the old cleaners who where unreliable but charged £4 would have had to start at 9 to try and get twice as much done to make the days wage.  It's 10.45 now, so I've still got time to call for some brekky first

[mick partington]

hi tony i think your missing the point he,s not interested in long term providing a good service ect,ect hes interested in removing people like you to make a round more saleable :

Getting rid of rivals also let you price you work at what you want so in the long term you can dictate however much you charge and how compact you want to make your rounds i.e allowing you to expand at whatever pace you want
Any other business this would be seen as good business

i seen on here he then sells those rounds at a nice proffit and builds more a business in itself.

[sparklebright]

i didnt say this is how i canvass now this was my strategy when i first took the plunge into self-employment and all the rounds i gained like this where actually the first to sell - What i was asking was why do many wcs respect each others "patches" when theres no such thing

When i canvass now im not desperate for work so i just quote the best price possible and one im happy with and sounds reasonable to the customer just happens that we are one of the expensive window cleaners in st helens but we provide a service to the highest standard with what i think is exeptional customer service

That's interesting, that's not what you said on the other thread! 

Be ruthless
I go on estates where i know there are window cleaners then i severely undercut them - Put them out of business on the estate then whipe up their business and make it mine then rise the prices to suit your price range - This allows me to grow my business, customer base, potential for further profits and raises the value of my business in the process

If you are argue a point, it's always best to be consistent, don't you think...

[TonyD]

I see exactly what he's doing, but he won't take many of my customers who don't hold price as the main bargaining tool, that's my point.
I too intend to sell my domestic rounds off in a few years, and hopefully they'll be worth a nice lump sum.
I also have an interest in round building then sale for business gain, and have some houses that are won purely to do this with, even though they're still won on the quality/reliability/trust/professionalism type of marketing so worth more than a round at basic prices without the need to try and raise the price before selling, so I'm able to sell faster, in my eyes anyway.

My main objective is too build a window cleaning business with the view to the best saleable price in the future, so everything I do is based on my exit.  I'm just about to launch a domestic cleaning business, with the same future exit in mind and not keeping all my eggs in one basket.  I also still do some car detailing and I'm trained / do a little part time paintless dent repair too, which helps with the odd used car sale that I do mainly to keep my hand in - All this because I LOVE cars, and have plans for a nice prestige/sports car sales business with detailing and car care services - whether I ever get there though... time will tell.......

[PCNW]

i used to undercut when i was starting out to get the customers firstly on price giving us the oppurtunity to show how high of a standard our service was then once we raised the prices you would be surprised how much people will be willing to pay for a good reliably service - This also allowed us to see who was going to be a problem sustomer and who wasnt - In the end all this work i gained through this method sold straight away - I now canvass fairly and like i said we have an excellent reputation for quality and we do respect certain window cleaners who are not on the dole and who arnt smackheads
The question i wanted was why is this method i used not seen as good business as you have more control over your clients and who you would keep and who not to. The key is to supply the customer, Look after the customer, be the best and most reliable at the lowest price and people will come flocking then increase prices to suit you - Short term hardship for longterm gain
I dont do this anymore but the like of the recession people are led by the pounds - If the quality of service your providing is much better you will get jobs easy but if the competition is strong maybe you have no options

[PCNW]

In the construction industry many tenders are given term like the lowest price to win the job
We can provide low tenders due to lower overheads. Any other industry this is good business - Like ive said once the low price give me the option to show our professionalism before putting the prices up sometime more than 200% and kept most custys through our quality and reliability

[cozy]

Be ruthless
I go on estates where i know there are window cleaners then i severely undercut them - Put them out of business on the estate then whipe up their business and make it mine then rise the prices to suit your price range - This allows me to grow my business, customer base, potential for further profits and raises the value of my business in the process

if thats the case m8 no more info should be given by any member here, am sorry , but you are out off line m8, business or not,

So how do I understand your point here? If you say something in one thread, why not stick to it in another thread? Like JOUK and Leaps said, be at least consistent.

[cozy]

In the construction industry many tenders are given term like the lowest price to win the job
We can provide low tenders due to lower overheads. Any other industry this is good business - Like ive said once the low price give me the option to show our professionalism before putting the prices up sometime more than 200% and kept most custys through our quality and reliability

Do you employ someone to write out your tenders?

[PCNW]

Thats how i expanded rapidly - I dont need to expand rapidly so i do use this method anymore plus im finishing window cleaning in the next few months
Was asking why people cant see this as good business?

[PCNW]

In the construction industry many tenders are given term like the lowest price to win the job
We can provide low tenders due to lower overheads. Any other industry this is good business - Like ive said once the low price give me the option to show our professionalism before putting the prices up sometime more than 200% and kept most custys through our quality and reliability

Do you employ someone to write out your tenders?

My Quantity Surveyor why

[cozy]

Well, I thought so. Just a niggly point that bothered me before.

The way you have described undercutting as a method of building a biz, gets up some peoples noses for at least one good reason. WCing is a biz that just about any able bodied person, with more than the IQ of a cat
can build, without a huge investment. Some people see it as a business, others as a window cleaning round. Not really complicated, just a biz that even I could run.

Along comes some guy, ambitious, like yourself, and rips it to shreads. No wonder people get a bit out of shape with your attitude. Do you see what I'm trying to get at? The other point I wanted to make was, if you have a point, or an opinion, stick to it and don't try to be all things to all people. Like you said once, it's business, not personal.

[gerard mcmanus]

I advertise my business, and sell my service at a set price regardless of any other window cleaners price, it is based on how much it costs me to run my business. I have heard customers paying W/C's £2 for 15 windows. If there is someone who cant see how mindless it is to continually undercut each other regardless of expenses and time spent on a job, I don't mean to be rude but you are being naive. Its not success to be the cheapest and have to most customers. Turnover is very important to a business model. Yes you want a larger share of the market, but what's the point if someone else who you undercut sticks at the more reasonable price and could be making the same profit with less customers, and room to take on more better paid work. You business will never get past a one man band sole trader, if that's the business model you adopt.

Also what you will be inclined to do it cut corners, to try and make a little more money, because your round is full of ridiculous low prices, and you will be beat on quality of work. Also tell me something, if you just intend on sticking the price up latter, do you not think the guy will come back. Customers who take you on because you are practically giving your service away will drop you the minute you put your prices up for someone cheaper, and there will always be someone else who will come along, and try the same stunt, its guaranteed and not as original as you might think.

[PCNW]

I advertise my business, and sell my service at a set price regardless of any other window cleaners price, it is based on how much it costs me to run my business. I have heard customers paying W/C's £2 for 15 windows. If there is someone who cant see how mindless it is to continually undercut each other regardless of expenses and time spent on a job, I don't mean to be rude but you are being naive. Its not success to be the cheapest and have to most customers. Turnover is very important to a business model. Yes you want a larger share of the market, but what's the point if someone else who you undercut sticks at the more reasonable price and could be making the same profit with less customers, and room to take on more better paid work. You business will never get past a one man band sole trader, if that's the business model you adopt.

Also what you will be inclined to do it cut corners, to try and make a little more money, because your round is full of ridiculous low prices, and you will be beat on quality of work. Also tell me something, if you just intend on sticking the price up latter, do you not think the guy will come back. Customers who take you on because you are practically giving your service away will drop you the minute you put your prices up for someone cheaper, and there will always be someone else who will come along, and try the same stunt, its guaranteed and not as original as you might think.

This is the point your missing - Once i got the customers i put prices up to prices much higher then they where for the other cleaner - We turned over £250 a day from 5-6 hrs work easily and these rounds sold first as there was no competition left in the area -

[PCNW]

The pricees on my rounds are very good for the area this is the north

[PCNW]

Well, I thought so. Just a niggly point that bothered me before.

The way you have described undercutting as a method of building a biz, gets up some peoples noses for at least one good reason. WCing is a biz that just about any able bodied person, with more than the IQ of a cat
can build, without a huge investment. Some people see it as a business, others as a window cleaning round. Not really complicated, just a biz that even I could run.

Along comes some guy, ambitious, like yourself, and rips it to shreads. No wonder people get a bit out of shape with your attitude. Do you see what I'm trying to get at? The other point I wanted to make was, if you have a point, or an opinion, stick to it and don't try to be all things to all people. Like you said once, it's business, not personal.

Its is business at the end of the day thats why i could be that ruthless - In 9 months i put 3 wcs out of business and if it was personel id have flet guilty not pleased but then i realised the business had grew too fast and we couldnt expand anymore so i sold up - One was on the dole and i found out was claiming sick pay - Simple enough i did this to expand - dont do it anymore not looking to expand but why cant this be good business

[cozy]

The pricees on my rounds are very good for the area this is the north

So you went in to an area, undercut the WC there and the custies stayed with you. Couple of months later, you put the new price in and it was higher than the old WC's price and the custies stayed with you,then after a couple of months you sold the round to another WC, who charges the same prices as you and the custies stayed with him. So now the custies have the third WC in a year at higher prices than before, and this works, right?