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Washers

  • Posts: 24
'A' FRAME LADDERS
« on: June 04, 2009, 10:49:22 am »
Hi All,
I am just about do go into to the window cleaning business after being laid off after 32 years in the steelwork industry so it will be all new to me.

My question is with regard to 'A' frame ladders. I am thinking of buying a double 'A' frame wooden ladder mainly for 1st floor windows or even a triple.

1) Where do you normally position the top of the ladder relative to the window?
2) How close to the top rung do you stand as the ladder gets narrower towards the top.
3) As they are damned expensive I don't want to make a costly mistake, what size ladder would you recommend, I was trying to get away with carrying it in inside my van (a s.w.b. VW ) so the longest would be 3m (double)approx. If this would not be long enough I will get a longer one and roof mount it?
4) What about triple 'A' frame ladders are they too cumbersome?

Cheers Guy's

mlscontractcleaner

  • Posts: 1483
Re: 'A' FRAME LADDERS
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2009, 11:41:28 am »
In my opinion, and it is only an opinion but it's based on almost 20 years in the job, I would only use an "A-Frame" for ground floor windows, much prefering a normal ladder for anything else. With more ladder on the wll I just feel that it's safer. The top of the pointer is designed to fit into the edge of the window recess meaning you'd be on one side of the window, tempting you to stretch over to the other side more, whereas a conventional ladder sits in the middle of the window allowing you, usually, to reach both edges of the window easily.

My advice would be to buy a single pointer and three traditional ladders; a double 9, a double 13 and, if you're planning on working at three stories high, a double 18. That lot will cover you for almost all eventualities ............. until you decide, like the majority of us, to invest in WFP. The ladders then make lovely orniments for the top of your van  ;D ;D ;D
Come and talk dirty to us!!!

R W C

Re: 'A' FRAME LADDERS
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2009, 03:53:04 pm »
If i use a ladder 90% of the time its the pointer compared to the standered ladder as i feel safer on the pointer, also if hes going to buy all them ladders you recommened he would probs be better off getting a diy system as there wont be much difference in price,

Chris

Ian W

  • Posts: 1161
Re: 'A' FRAME LADDERS
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2009, 04:25:47 pm »
A 3m double a frame is fine for smaller modern houses, but I find it too short on some of the larger properties I do. I actually have a 4m double a frame for those. I was advised to get a 3.5m when I first started as a good general purpose size.

I think a frames are much safer than standard ladders. Get it fitted with swivel safety feet too.

I normally position it  the top of the ladder about 3/4 of the way up the side of the frame.

You only need to reach the top of the window, so if the tip of the ladder is a 3/4 of the way up the frame, you will probably still be standing on full size rungs.
Do all the good you can, and make as little fuss about it as possible.
Charles Dickens

Ian Lancaster

  • Posts: 2811
Re: 'A' FRAME LADDERS
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2009, 04:55:34 pm »
Properly used, so-called A-frame ladders are by far the safest for window cleaning.  They were designed specifically for the job by Shaftesbury Ladders in consultation with working window cleaners way back in the late forties or early fifties.

The splay foot gives a much wider base, so increasing stability and the point was designed to fit ON the corner of the brickwork at the side of the window.  Modern H&S thinking has decided this is dangerous and so decree it should only be put INTO the reveal (the angle between the brick and the window frame)

Basic geometry tells you:  any three points always lie in the same plane, so all three points of a 'pointer' will always be in contact with the wall/ground.  An open ender has to be set in a very precise position to achieve the contact of all four ends firmly on the wall/ground and this is rarely achievable unless the building is on perfectly level ground.

There is no such thing as a 'three part' pointer, or if someone has made one, I wouldn't trust it.

A 3.0m double will be adequate for most two story buildings, with a 4.0, 4.5 or 5.0 for higher work, though the H&S frown on this.

AS to overreaching: if the ladder is set into the corner of the window, then when you reach to the other corner you are actually reaching backwards, rather than to the side, and so lessen the chance of overbalancing.  Large windows should be tackled by doing one side at a time, and moving the ladder from one side to the other as necessary.  Setting a ladder in the middle encourages the attempt to overreach, and there's nothing to counteract the tendency for the ladder to spin around.

Nearly forgot:

The rule is you must not climb a ladder any higher than the point where the top would be in line with the middle of your chest.  Any more and you become very unstable.

martinsadie

Re: 'A' FRAME LADDERS
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2009, 07:21:39 pm »
If i use a ladder 90% of the time its the pointer compared to the standered ladder as i feel safer on the pointer, also if hes going to buy all them ladders you recommened he would probs be better off getting a diy system as there wont be much difference in price,

Chris
you never go above the third rung  ;D ;D

Sapphire Window Cleaning

  • Posts: 2942
Re: 'A' FRAME LADDERS
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2009, 07:30:02 pm »
I place my top block of the A frames on the corner of the window frames or above the window or on the crossbeam.
If I have to use ladders its always the A frames that I use, as these are safer than standard ladders as it only has one point at the top thus having more pressure in one area which results in a more stable postion, standard ladders have 2 points which spreads the weight and results in each point being lighter and more likely to slide.
A frames are ladders designed for window cleaning.
some people like them others dont. I use them as they are made specifically for the work you and I do.




Matt
Reaching parts traditional window cleaners can not reach.

martinsadie

Re: 'A' FRAME LADDERS
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2009, 07:37:01 pm »
The rule is you must not climb a ladder any higher than the point where the top would be in line with the middle of your chest.  Any more and you become very unstable.
i find for that to happen the ladder would be on the glass,top around waist hieght unless i pop up that extra rung on tall windows

mr D

  • Posts: 913
Re: 'A' FRAME LADDERS
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2009, 12:59:50 am »
well worth the money IMO. so so so much safer. you only need 3 points of contact as apposed to 4 with a conventional ladder. thus giving you the ability to work at angles and on slopes safely. ive even known dare devils turning them up side down to work on stars ;D :o ::) lol

as for where do you put the top. pretty much any where to be honest just just go carefully till your used to it.

3m is not big enough I'd go bigger. you will kick your self if you dont.

get one you can reach the gutters of an average 2 story house with.

oh and get aluminium. trust me. remember ladders are tax deductible and in this very highly labour intensive trade there's not that much we can put through the books so grab what you can to enable you to work more efficiently there for upping your earnings.


Washers

  • Posts: 24
Re: 'A' FRAME LADDERS
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2009, 10:54:08 am »
Cheers guys for the replies,
not much said in favour of the open ended ladders.
Curently looking at the 'A' frame then and will go longer than I first thought, to be on the safe side.

Now then wood or aluminium? Ummmm.


Ash.

Re: 'A' FRAME LADDERS
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2009, 11:09:55 am »
Cheers guys for the replies,
not much said in favour of the open ended ladders.
Curently looking at the 'A' frame then and will go longer than I first thought, to be on the safe side.

Now then wood or aluminium? Ummmm.


Ash.

If you must go this route, 3.5 metre double is the minimum IMO.  I have a 4 metre double (unused and gathering dust in the garage).  It feels a bit long but has been very helpful on certain jobs.
I would definitely forget about wood and go for an ali ladder.
If you are unfamiliar with this, PLEASE get someone to show you a few things first.  A mistake might not just be costly in money terms.
I don't want this thread to be trad vs wfp war but do consider a pure water system to reduce the need for ladders.

Ian Lancaster

  • Posts: 2811
Re: 'A' FRAME LADDERS
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2009, 12:29:34 pm »
The rule is you must not climb a ladder any higher than the point where the top would be in line with the middle of your chest.  Any more and you become very unstable.
i find for that to happen the ladder would be on the glass,top around waist hieght unless i pop up that extra rung on tall windows

Exactly.

That's part of the reason 'A' frames were developed.  If you set it at the side of the window the top can be anywhere from the sill to the top of the frame.  If you use an open ender, then the only two safe places to set it are below the sill or above the window on the lintel

mlscontractcleaner

  • Posts: 1483
Re: 'A' FRAME LADDERS
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2009, 02:44:51 pm »
Well I still don't like pointer ladders, never have done and since converting to WFP five years ago hardly use ladders at all.

Opinions vary I guess but I still feel a conventional ladder is safer, and it has to be timber with metal rungs.

Only a preference but I like them  :)
Come and talk dirty to us!!!