[thebouncingbunny]

first post here.so here goes.
i have come in search of information. ::)cant seem to find any definitive gen on whats "legal"with ladders.i am a one man outfit.
much of my work is blocks of flats(between 10-65 flats)up to 3rd floor.i must say up to now i have always used a "head in the sand"approach to health and safety.well i know best as i have been doing it 18 years! :
anyway it would seem that those days are at an end.one or two customers are getting twitchy and have been told so much stuff(information or disinformation?)
it would seem that according to most local wfp users ladders are the work of the devil and tantamount to doing an armed robbery!
so.do i need to change over or am i being fed a sales line?
if so which wfp should i go for?
thanks ,bunny

[sham33]

Well,  i've read the new laws on ladders and im none the wiser (thats the europeon union for you). I dont think the police would pull up and take u away if u was using ladders 3 storys up but if u fell off u wouldn't have a foot to stand on (excuse the pun)

Get a wfp anyway they are great, takes away any risk and for 3 story flats your probably slash your working time in half.

[Davindo Cleana]

the last but one piece of HSE legislation states a max of 9 metres or I figure that as 29 and a half feet - but it also states a requirement to secure ladders over 6 metres (which is not always easy to acheive) - your third floor is probably too high - what size ladders are you using. - apart from your own safety, you might come unstuck on insurance claim if you survive
the latest (6th April 2005) goes further - you are meant to find the best and safest means before resorting to ladders - it is open to interpretation but they are specific on the max height

hope that helps

p.s. I got some excellent advice from the forum administrators - so if your head is swimming with permutations, why not contact them

[matt]

i do a fair bit of 2nd storey windows, and its bloody great, stood on the floor watching your brush disapear into the clowds, safe in the knowledge that you will be safe

[Simon Carter]

The question is what is different for you ?. Did you have insurance before?. What did it cover ?. Why did you have it ?. Has the legislation changed any of this ?. I'm blowed if I know ( most polite word I could think of ).
When you think about it, isn't it bizarre that all's those Eurocrats should come up with legislation that is so confussing.
Question ..... can I clean windows off a ladder? ..... answer ....... maybe, possibly, not really sure, under certain circumstances. If you want to take the chance, you might end up in court & then we will pay the lawyers almost as much as the Eurocrtas to decide ..... maybe.

[rosskesava]

This whole issue of can a ladder be used or not is very very very simple and for anyone who is worried about it I suggest doing the following as I did.

1 Get a phone book or look on the internet

2 Phone up the HSE

3 Go by what they say.

Hi Simon

The answer is not maybe, possibly, not really sure, etc. The hse person I ended up (after several hours going around in circles) speaking to seemed very certain.

Also to imply that simply by using a ladder you may end up in court is misinformation. Someone would probably only end up in court if a serious accident occured and even then probably only if another person was involved. i.e. Falling off the ladder and landing on a passer by.

The WAHD is really aimed firstly at the construction industry, who account for about half of all injuries and fatalities, and secondly at employers and people who are responsible for others. That's why is seems confusing.

It also applies to self employed w/c's but not quite in the same way.

From what I've understood it seems to be paving the way for a ban on working from ladders within 25 years.

Cheers

Ross

[Simon Carter]

So let me get this right.
The HSE person 'seemed very certain'.
The legislation applies to self employed window cleaners, 'but not quite in the same way'.
From 'what you understand', 'it seems' to be paving the way for a ladder ban in 25 years.

So can I use a ladder to clean windows or can't I ?.
If you can answer that simple question definitively, then I will gladly retract all that I have said.

[rosskesava]

Yes you can use ladders.

You are required to be competant in the use of them though. If a hse bloke asked you (and I stress the 'if') about the safe use of ladders he would expect you to be able to demostrate what you know to his satisfaction.

If over 6 metres (I think- I've lent a friend the notes I wrote down) then you are required to use precautions like ladder matts, someone at the bottom, etc.

As for the WAHD applying to the self employed, when I asked where in any leaflet does it say about the self employed he said it applied to any place of work and that includes someones front garden but ....... he aslo said that if a person chooses to take a risk, then if only that person is involved then current law is hazy unless you are carrying out work for a company or the like. Then they are responsible for making sure you follow a safe working practise unless you act without their direct knowledge. By that I mean if you say you will use WFP's and then use ladders in an unsafe way.

One example he gave about the self employed was that if I was taking a risk at the top of a 9m ladder and my reason, working on my own, was that I was intending to commit suicide then how would hse rules apply to that scenario?

So, yes, you can still use ladders and I didn't say so because I've posted quite a lot about it and I thought as the same question keeps being asked, it's best if you find out for yourself. That way you'll know what is what as a lot of postings are so far of the mark and speculative to say the least.

Cheers

Ross

[AuRavelling79]

You can use a ladder without the rozzers carting you off. It's not a criminal offence. But.......

Commercial and local authority customers are more aware of wfp and some may insist upon wfp use either already or shortly. It may depends upon their and your risk assessments.

WAHD says that you should use the safest practical means for the job at hand and they specifically mention that wfp systems are available to window cleaners.

You choose what you use but get it wrong and you will be sued, injured, maimed or killed.

Both ladders (and their users) and poles can fall and damage property and people - look at the situation and make your decision. Poles are more likely to come into contact with overhead cables. In winter they may leave frozen water on footpaths. Their hoses can trip up the unwary or crafty.

I use a wfp for 80% of my domestic properties for which I previously used a ladder. I still choose a ladder on one non-bay windowed estate for convenience. I take the choice. I am responsible for the consequences.

I feel safer using a pole on most of my round's upper windows.

[thebouncingbunny]

oh dear!well it seems as i have read in my quick scan on this forum that it is down to some interpretation.i have read the hse regs and the way i read it its down to your reading and reasoning of the situation at the job.(excuse my poor wording)i'm reckoning that my stuff is well within 9 metres(modern pupse  bilt)tho i must say i have no theodolite!
wfp.well on the one hand i'm quite keen.but on the other i actually quite like my ladders and i feel safe on em.tho i'm fussy about weather conditions and placings etc.i find tying them off at the buildings where the contracts state it must be is a pain and and causes agro where the ties cross a footpath so here it would be a good solution.
now.where i live is by the sea and we have a large(and growing)gull population......sure these wfp systems are not reliable at removing bird lime???how can you see it from three floors below?cos i'm darn sure my old dears would boomin well spot it!

[Ian_Giles]

I would agree with Ross, there are safety procedures you should follow with the use of ladders if you wish to fully comply with all the legislation, but as I drive around, very few ladder monkeys seem to bother about them. not just us window cleaners either.
Do some research on the forum about WFP, ask loads of specific questions, with the type of work you have, you would greatly benifit with having a WFP.

WFP does have an achilles heel though, and that is frames with oxidized paintwork. But that is something you need to learn of at a later date.
It isn't the be all and end all, you can do a superb job with WFP in a third of the time it takes you with trad methods, but you can also do an awful job too, with great ease
Hard to overstate the safety angle, huge, massive and once you start with WFP you are unlikely to want to climb a ladder again.
I've been going 21 years now, going over to WFP has made a huge difference to my business.........5 grands worth of difference in the first year actually

I still use traditional methods, most days in fact (due to the nature of my particular work) but have only climbed a ladder to clean windows (pointer ladder notwithstanding) on perhaps 3 or 4 times in 12 months.

If you are happy and content to stick with ladders then do so of course, just check out the regs concerning safe ladder use.
But you will most certainly have to compete for work more and more with WFP window cleaners.

Perfect system? There isn't one, each will have their champions, Matt, who has replied to your post has done an excellent posting on a DIY system, so there is that option too.

All the info you could possibly want with regards to WFP can be found here, or over on http://www.another forum.co.uk/

Most of the major manufacturers also frequent the forums, most notably Ionics and Omnipole, you will find they are all helpful and professional (sometimes they squabble But thats fun )

Loads of info about WAHD too, ask Rosskesava, its his favourite topic! Isn't that right Ross

Time to go, I've a wife working as a supervisor in a local Spar shop, 10pm finish for her, I get into enough grief for being on here as it is, if I'm late picking her up cos I'm posting on the forum she won't be best pleased

Ian