[Johnny B]

I have read all the posts on this thread, and have found it very interesting. I have recently joined the forum, so a big 'Hi' to everyone.

I am a trad. window cleaner with 12 years experience. I have nothing against WFP, it's that I simply prefer to be 'up there' so I can see that I have done my job well enough to keep my customers happy. I spend as much, if not more time, checking my ladders are correctly positioned and safe before using them than I do cleaning the windows. You may say that trad. is slower and therefore less lucrative than WFP. In my case that is certainly true, but I believe it is more important to do the job thoroughly and well, rather than quickly and shoddily. By this I am not implying that anyone reading this is. If you can combine speed with genuine quality, then fair play to you. I may be behind the times in the view of some, but then I don't try to compete with anyone. As long as my customers are happy, and I earn enough, everyone's a winner aren't they?

John.        

[[GQC] Tim]

I did the same thing, even carried a ladderm8rix around the house.

The thing is, you don't have to get up right to the glass to know you've done a good job. It will come with experience, and time.

wfp is the way to go, and when you are finally using it, then you will start to dislike using ladders more and more.

[PaulTh]

my Gripe wasnt with anyone in this forum it was just in general and to try and educate window cleaners that ladders are not banned if however i encounter this propoganda in future when canvassing i will come up with a couple of reasons not to go with wfp for the customer for instance "its not very green is it? using a bathtub of water to wash your house windows? or let them know that even though wfp does the job in half the time you will find they probably charge you almost double the price lol so therefore ripping you off 3 times the cost of your windows etc lol fight fire with fire i say.

[johns window kleen]

Paul I can understand your frustration, but two wrongs dont make a right.

Not all of us use 25 ltrs to clean 1 or 2 houses, that is an obscene waste of water. Not all charge more for using WFP, why should we when it's quicker.

So resist the urge to bend the truth.

I can never understand the antagonism between the two methods users.
There is place for both. Ladders aren't banned, and if I wasnt such a coward I would use them and save me hours refilling and making pure water. Having said that i'd work longer hours, so it counter balances.

But my own non scientific risk assessment leads me to conclude that for the money at stake in cleaning windows death or serious injury are to be avoided at all costs.

I would never stoop to wrongly advising potential customers that ladders are banned, or that they might get sued if their WC falls. I tell them straight I use WFP for uppers only and trad lowers purely because I dont want to fall off. They can take it or leave it, im not bothered, but those who go with it allways tell me their windows &  frames are all cleaned to a high standard and their pleased with the results.

 Lucky me ay!. I pass jobs to trad cleaners, trads pass jobs to me they cant do.
It's the way this should work isnt it?

Peace and love to all.

[PaulTh]

yeah i know m8 i was just at the windup and youve hit the nail on the head its not about the different methods wfp is safer i totally agree,its about certain window cleaners(not all wfp users) "spiel" to gain customers to the detriment of new guys starting out with ladders,just keep the bs down a little lads theres plenty of work to go around.

spiel   /spil, ʃpil/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [speel, shpeel]  Show IPA Informal.
–noun 1. a usually high-flown talk or speech, esp. for the purpose of luring people to a movie, a sale, etc.; pitch.

–verb (used without object) 2. to speak extravagantly.

[AuRavelling79]

my Gripe wasnt with anyone in this forum it was just in general and to try and educate window cleaners that ladders are not banned if however i encounter this propoganda in future when canvassing i will come up with a couple of reasons not to go with wfp for the customer for instance "its not very green is it? using a bathtub of water to wash your house windows? or let them know that even though wfp does the job in half the time you will find they probably charge you almost double the price lol so therefore ripping you off 3 times the cost of your windows etc lol fight fire with fire i say.

Think before you post Paul Th

First of all, on a regular clean of a basic semi I would use about 15 litres (ten minutes of scrubbing at 1.5 litres a minute) - And if I harvest water off of my roofs and use DI only that's pretty green isn't it?

How much water and electricity does a washing machine - from the mains supply - use to warm the water, clean and rinse soap filled cloths and applicator, say three times a week? What about the soapy water from your bucket that you chuck down the drain - how much cleaning does that need before it is potable again? Or do you throw it on the garden and damage grass, plants and worms?

And your assertions re: charging are a sweeping generalisation that may have no basis in fact.

Fight Fire with Fire, you say? Accuracy with Falsehood more like.

[bluez]

To bluez:- "how do you know it's safer to use wfp on a particular property - I paraphrase - etc"

1. I only canvass properties that are IMO best suited to wfp (so only 99.9% IME )2. I never lead with my method of working

3. If the custy/prospect makes an issue of wfp (about 1% IME) I sometimes use this flyer.

4. The whole point I make is I don't know (as in a precedent set in law) the legalities but I believe I do and (to the custy) "do you want to take a chance?"

Tell me bluez, which properties are safer to clean using ladders - I'll then make sure I leave them for trad. users.

[/color]

Fair enough Malc I can see the usefulness in these circumstanes.  Can you see how it might feel a bit contrived to the customer? 

Bear in mind that I do like the content just a bit unsure how it might be interpreted. I dont really understand the point in your last question , I dont mind if you leave them or not I am not advocating one method or another only pointing out how I believe producing this flyer will be pecieved.

I might be wrong..............I was once before, it was a long time ago though



 

[newbroom]

 I changed to wfp about 4 years ago i have no axe grind with either method but just point finger at wfp users saying ladders are banned is one sided. I've lost count the times ive heard trad w/c slating wfp without any experience of system. Most wfp users on this site have the benefit of starting trad and switching to wfp which in itself speaks volumes

[Nathanael Jones]

I changed to wfp about 4 years ago i have no axe grind with either method but just point finger at wfp users saying ladders are banned is one sided. I've lost count the times ive heard trad w/c slating wfp without any experience of system. Most wfp users on this site have the benefit of starting trad and switching to wfp which in itself speaks volumes

Good point and well made!

[Moderator David@stives]

http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/april.htm


Myth: HSE has banned stepladders
April 2007The reality
We have not banned stepladders - nor have we banned ladders! Despite this, the allegation is regularly repeated and some firms have fallen for the myth and acted upon it.

For straightforward, short duration work stepladders and ladders can be a good option, but you wouldn’t want to be wobbling about on them doing complex tasks for long periods. A large number of workers are seriously injured or killed using ladders and stepladders each year. So:

Yes - we want people to use the right equipment for the job.
Yes - there are some common-sense rules for using them safely.
But no - we have not banned them!

[NWH]

For window cleaning IMO they should be banned,i know certain jobs in particular need them more but for cleaning windows these days you don`t need them.If certain windows don`t come up good with WFP customers will just have to accept that on the upstairs i would say the majority would,ladders are just to much like hard work now for me.

[ftp]

Ewan, correct me if i'm wrong, but it only seemed five minutes ago you were advising someone of the way to use a stand off and a stabilising device, even telling them that's what you yourself used. So you use ladders then tell us they are banned?

[ftp]

Think I'll look for another thread. 

[martinsadie]

i will never stop using ladders,and when someone works for me like tommorrow he is a self employed w/c short of work who has his own equitment which includes ladders,although i wouldnt use someone with a wfp set up unless they left it at home and brought some ladders with them