[Nathanael Jones]

Ladders can still be used where it is reasonably practicable.

Which means  time over cost and effort.

Is Cost an excuse when WFP is really quite cheap?

[peter holley]

Nice one Dave a link straight from the horses mouth i think thats half the forum been put straight now.

yes you are right i'm going back to ladders.... :  my wife will understand, and i hate spending time at home anyhow

oh well it looks like i'l be working 20 more hours a week now i'm back on the ladders , but at least i'l lose the belly , and i like the thrill of knowing i can fall off and hurt myself...afterall if i were to fall and die , at least i have life insurance for my family....
i cant believe i didnt think of this earlier

[AuRavelling79]

I don't lead with a ladder discussion but if a prospect asks I have this home made flyer to hand.

Dear Mr. Newcusty:-

MalcGold window cleaning welcomes you as a new customer and we hope you don't mind a word about safety:-

If your window cleaner falls from his/her ladder on your property and injures himself or damages your (eg) vehicle is it?:-

A) His problem - surely he carried out correct risk assessment procedures beforehand?

B) Your problem - you should know whether he can use a ladder on your property for cleaning windows or not.

C) His insurer's problem (if he has any) - but will they pay out?

D) Your insurer's problem - but will they pay out?

E) Who knows until it goes to court? (With all the attendant hassle beforehand)

In all honesty as your window cleaner I would say "E" above - so I personally follow HSE guidelines and choose what I believe to be the safest method to clean your windows. I believe the safest method for your property is a Waterfed Pole System. I know my insurer is aware I use the system and the first question in the HSE guidelines for window cleaning about ladder access is "Can the work be done from the ground (eg WFP)"

If a ladder-using window cleaner should approach you and say that his method is perfectly ok to use then perhaps you could put the above questions to him and gauge his response?

I used this on one "blow-hard" fella out canvassing three months ago and left it with him - three days later he phoned and asked me to do his windows. He seems happy so far ...

It's the way you tell 'em!

[Nathanael Jones]

I don't lead with a ladder discussion but if a prospect asks I have this home made flyer to hand.

Dear Mr. Newcusty:-

MalcGold window cleaning welcomes you as a new customer and we hope you don't mind a word about safety:-

If your window cleaner falls from his/her ladder on your property and injures himself or damages your (eg) vehicle is it?:-

A) His problem - surely he carried out correct risk assessment procedures beforehand?

B) Your problem - you should know whether he can use a ladder on your property for cleaning windows or not.

C) His insurer's problem (if he has any) - but will they pay out?

D) Your insurer's problem - but will they pay out?

E) Who knows until it goes to court? (With all the attendant hassle beforehand)

In all honesty as your window cleaner I would say "E" above - so I personally follow HSE guidelines and choose what I believe to be the safest method to clean your windows. I believe the safest method for your property is a Waterfed Pole System. I know my insurer is aware I use the system and the first question in the HSE guidelines for window cleaning about ladder access is "Can the work be done from the ground (eg WFP)"

If a ladder-using window cleaner should approach you and say that his method is perfectly ok to use then perhaps you could put the above questions to him and gauge his response?

I used this on one "blow-hard" fella out canvassing three months ago and left it with him - three days later he phoned and asked me to do his windows. He seems happy so far ...

It's the way you tell 'em!

Excelent bit of info,.. Mind if I copy that and use it on my website?

[Moderator David@stives]

Yes cost does come into the risk assessment.

If it costs you £10 in time and effort to clean a 50p window, then yes it is reasonably practicable to use a ladder.

The cheapest off the shelf professionaly fitted system is at least £2k, If you want crash tested then it is a lot more.

Not everyone does DIY

[simon knight]

Every last single post on this thread: Groundhog Day :

[PaulTh]

its amusing to see those who swore blind they were banned are instead now more into health and safety than the health and safety ppl themselves lol i dont want to give anyone any ideas but maybe these same ppl will be lobbying the european parliament for an outright ban now.


Window Cleaning:its not rocket science stop trying to make out it is lol

[Nathanael Jones]

Yes cost does come into the risk assessment.

If it costs you £10 in time and effort to clean a 50p window, then yes it is reasonably practicable to use a ladder.

The cheapest off the shelf professionaly fitted system is at least £2k, If you want crash tested then it is a lot more.

Not everyone does DIY

I know what you're saying & you're spot on,.. but in this day and age, if you're in the business and working 3 days a week or more, I don't think 2K is any excuse for not having WFP. Many companies offer systems on a lease arrangement for as little as £10 per week, so regardless, cost is not an issue.

And as for the £10 to do a 50p window,.. I'd say (and I'm sure HSE would agree) windows should be priced accordingly as regards access & risk involved,.. is it worth risking a fall for just 50p??

Obviously some windows are not WFP friendly (Very few) and some area's have access restrictions that make WFP impossible,.. I'll gladly give you those,... but in reality more than 95% of all windows can be cleaned quickly and easily by WFP.
Going by current HSE rules, those windows that can be cleaned WFP should be cleaned WFP regardless, and the other 5% or less off ladders/cherry picker/scaffold. You're not doing the trad guys any favours by muddying that point.
Falls from ladders kill and maim ppl all the time,.. its time to stop taking chances and starting to "work smart".

[Moderator David@stives]

I  will tell you where i stand in regards to using ladders.

I have been on a 5 Day IoSH managing safely course, All my staff have been on working at height and manual habdling courses, we are chas and safecontractor accredited.

Having spoken to all the above people, nowhere has anyone told me we cant clean windows off ladders even though it would be personal choice.

REALITY = In my business we do not clean off ladders, mainly because i dont want to scrape one of my employees off the floor, we do use ladders but only for access as there is invariably no other means to get on a flat roof etc.

We do not use ladders for window cleaning because we can't , we dont because we won't.

[AuRavelling79]

I don't lead with a ladder discussion but if a prospect asks I have this home made flyer to hand.

Dear Mr. Newcusty:-

MalcGold window cleaning welcomes you as a new customer and we hope you don't mind a word about safety:-

If your window cleaner falls from his/her ladder on your property and injures himself or damages your (eg) vehicle is it?:-

A) His problem - surely he carried out correct risk assessment procedures beforehand?

B) Your problem - you should know whether he can use a ladder on your property for cleaning windows or not.

C) His insurer's problem (if he has any) - but will they pay out?

D) Your insurer's problem - but will they pay out?

E) Who knows until it goes to court? (With all the attendant hassle beforehand)

In all honesty as your window cleaner I would say "E" above - so I personally follow HSE guidelines and choose what I believe to be the safest method to clean your windows. I believe the safest method for your property is a Waterfed Pole System. I know my insurer is aware I use the system and the first question in the HSE guidelines for window cleaning about ladder access is "Can the work be done from the ground (eg WFP)"

If a ladder-using window cleaner should approach you and say that his method is perfectly ok to use then perhaps you could put the above questions to him and gauge his response?

I used this on one "blow-hard" fella out canvassing three months ago and left it with him - three days later he phoned and asked me to do his windows. He seems happy so far ...

It's the way you tell 'em!

Excelent bit of info,.. Mind if I copy that and use it on my website?

By all means.

[martinsadie]

Ladders are banned, there use is now prohibited.

(Which means you are banned from using them under certain circumstances)

Maybe you should get your facts right.

i use mine 7 hours a day,5 days a week,circumsrtance being i need to reach first floor windows 

[Llaaww]

my ladder goes every where with me, always will. Don,t knock em.
There are many successful window cleaners who have been using ladders for years.
They have been and still are a cheap and easy way for people to start a business.
I will always defend my right to use them any time i like.

I rarely get the thing off the van these days.

[cozy]

Ladders are not banned

Ladders can still be used where it is reasonably practicable.

Which means  time over cost and effort.

If you still use ladders that is your choice and it isnt illegal.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/april.htm


Myth: HSE has banned stepladders
April 2007The reality
We have not banned stepladders - nor have we banned ladders! Despite this, the allegation is regularly repeated and some firms have fallen for the myth and acted upon it.

For straightforward, short duration work stepladders and ladders can be a good option, but you wouldn’t want to be wobbling about on them doing complex tasks for long periods. A large number of workers are seriously injured or killed using ladders and stepladders each year. So:

Yes - we want people to use the right equipment for the job.
Yes - there are some common-sense rules for using them safely.
But no - we have not banned them!

So Ewan, Dave Morris is talking rubbish?  I bet you argue with your reflection in the mirror.

[cozy]

Ladders are banned, there use is now prohibited.

(Which means you are banned from using them under certain circumstances)

Maybe you should get your facts right.

AHH, so they were banned at 6.51 pm but now they aren't, I see, silly me, I misunderstood :

[cozy]

So ignore what you said at  6.51 then? ok

[cozy]

I'd love to answer that Ewan, but I can't fart loud enough.

This forum is there to help eachother when we need help and also for a certain amount of good banter. You never seem to fit in to either. I know I will get into hot water with the Forum Mods so I'll close this pointless tit for tat with you and your posts(That I find really hard to understand).

Do me a favour Ewan, if you have an opinion, try and stick to it.

Now it's goodnight from me.

[dai]

When the working at heights legislation first came out I read "reasonably practicable" and immediately thought of armies of lawyers rubbing their hands together.
"Reasonably practicable" is a get out pure and simple, that phrase is used again and again throughout EEC regulations, I have seen it used for conservation projects, and even fisheries regulations.
Dave Morris is spot on as usual, and until I can levitate onto a flat roof, I have no choice or other "reasonably practicable" method of gaining access other than using my ladder.

[bluez]

I don't lead with a ladder discussion but if a prospect asks I have this home made flyer to hand.

Dear Mr. Newcusty:-

MalcGold window cleaning welcomes you as a new customer and we hope you don't mind a word about safety:-

If your window cleaner falls from his/her ladder on your property and injures himself or damages your (eg) vehicle is it?:-

A) His problem - surely he carried out correct risk assessment procedures beforehand?

B) Your problem - you should know whether he can use a ladder on your property for cleaning windows or not.

C) His insurer's problem (if he has any) - but will they pay out?

D) Your insurer's problem - but will they pay out?

E) Who knows until it goes to court? (With all the attendant hassle beforehand)

In all honesty as your window cleaner I would say "E" above - so I personally follow HSE guidelines and choose what I believe to be the safest method to clean your windows. I believe the safest method for your property is a Waterfed Pole System. I know my insurer is aware I use the system and the first question in the HSE guidelines for window cleaning about ladder access is "Can the work be done from the ground (eg WFP)"

If a ladder-using window cleaner should approach you and say that his method is perfectly ok to use then perhaps you could put the above questions to him and gauge his response?

I used this on one "blow-hard" fella out canvassing three months ago and left it with him - three days later he phoned and asked me to do his windows. He seems happy so far ...

It's the way you tell 'em!

I dont mean to be overly pedantic Malc, but you say that you use this home made flyer, but in the flyer it states that " you believe the safest way for your property is wfp " how do you know? did you inspect the property and then drive home and print up this flyer specially for this house?

Surely every property is different. Perhaps a phrase like "In my experience most properties are ideally suited to wfp"

I like the intention in the flyer but if it was presented to me at my home I would take it for what it is ....a sales gimmick.

I am not pro wfp or trad I use both nearly every day as I do mewp's there is a place for all useful equipment within the HSE laws.

[mark dew]

PaulTh, i was gonna quote your posts in this reply, but they were to long a read before it got to my bit.
So, what, who, where are you on about? I realised the why when i read you just have a few customers and probably dreaming of getting wfp.
It's a bit general, a criticism. And i reckon based on other peoples reactions to your post rather than a genuine personal experience.
Get a free advert on yell.com. I've had a dozen good jobs from this in the last 6 weeks. It's free, so can only be good for your business. 

[AuRavelling79]

To bluez:- "how do you know it's safer to use wfp on a particular property - I paraphrase - etc"

1. I only canvass properties that are IMO best suited to wfp (so only 99.9% IME )

2. I never lead with my method of working

3. If the custy/prospect makes an issue of wfp (about 1% IME) I sometimes use this flyer.

4. The whole point I make is I don't know (as in a precedent set in law) the legalities but I believe I do and (to the custy) "do you want to take a chance?"

Tell me bluez, which properties are safer to clean using ladders - I'll then make sure I leave them for trad. users.