[AuRavelling79]

OK - I have a job that is worth £1668.00 and I got all the health and safety blurb from head office and was told that I had to go on one of their "ceramics and firing industry sub-contractor" courses for two days at a cost to me of £500 plus accommodation in the east midlands or it could result in me not retaining the contract.

I had a word with the local factory site manager and he said don't worry I'll sort it. I had a half hour site induction course where the guy said "watch out for fork trucks, wear your hi-viz and you can use these ear defenders on the factory floor" and I had to show my PLI (£1 million).

Off my own bat I provided a risk assessment and I have remained as their window cleaner. I also get the occasional document to fill in for health and safety and like David's better explained post where item (c) re: 3 years accounts -  was expanded I reply:

I have no audited accounts because I am a soletrader who is not registered for VAT and thus self-certify. Two of my sub contractors are CRB checked (true - my wife works in a school and she does my books and my daughter is training in "special needs" for children and she helps me from time to time), I am not - if gaining this contract is dependant upon that then I will be CRB checked too but can assure you that other than a 3 point speeding fine in 1988 I have had no convictions and no malicious intent towards anybody.

Now I know this will not gain me the work in some organisations - maybe - Royal Cornwall Hospitals NHS Trust (and what is their record on MRSA while they jobsworth around on their window cleaning contract, hmmmm?) but this attitude and "common sense approach" seems to let me work for various schools, a Police constabulary and a multinational car manufacturer.

Don't get me wrong - if a hoop is worth jumping through then I'll ask how high and circular it is - but I like working for like minded folk who don't strut around with a clipboard quoting BS5750 ISO this and that.

[Window Washers]

You have to remember Dave is well into this at the moment and fair play to him, not everyone asks for this far from it and dave will agree.
I just want to see the free marketing he gets when he gets the course that he is doing, i am sitting here with open eyes waiting, because his last one for safe contractor was a blinder! I have to admit it, made paying them there fee each year seem worth it even though to the majority it means nothing. For that I have total respect shows his company in a very good light

[mark dew]

fair play to you dave for pursuing this line of work. But this isn't quality work in my opinion.
I consider nhs work a loss leader. The real benefit of gaining this is that the premier league work out there (in terms of profitability), would be impressed with your credentials.
Take a reduced profit on this as a selling point in obtaining more profitable work in the future. This is geared up for sticking employees onto. Not for sole traders or little co operatives.

[ftp]

Some companies are complete a holes to deal with. M&S being one of them! We used to print books for them and to be honest it just wasn't worth the hassle in the end because their demands were ridiculous - they would specialise in rejecting everything even down to the cardboard boxes the books were packed in. :

[bluez]

The Truck load of regulations coming out of the EU and the ever changing demands on small business (licensing etc.) mean that our market place is changing, even domestic jobs are now looking for proof of insurance and stuff (i know, not often but it is happening).

All of the new regulations and the h&s and the accreditations and training certs are begining to create a new breed of window cleaner more intune with the demands of the modern commercial workplace and its legal requirements over time the level of investment in professionalism being made by Dave (and others) will leave many of us in the position that is now occupied by what is commonly refered to as the beer brigade.

If you are a domestic only window cleaner than a lot of this will not bother you yet but in the years to come it may begin to intrude. If you are seriously interested in the large commercial then this will be more and more the norm when tendering for work.

Thanks for posting Dave, it keeps those of us interested in commercial work aware of the changing standards being requested.   

[Clive McDonald]

This is why a janiking franchise looks attractive, you have all that side of things dealt with. This is akin to building your own system or getting an ionics.

ionics is costly but to learn on this forum takes nine months, the level of competence for a quote that this thread is asking for is years in the learning.

It's good that we get a peek at how the game is played in the division above, and while i do want to grow, the idea of becoming the ace at this stuff is not something that makes me want to leap out of bed in the mornings.

[AJ]

generally, a big fat brown envelope for the facilities manager, or the expression 'its not what you know, its who you know.

[trevor perry]

when i left school i chose window cleaning because i didnt like academic work but enjoyed hands on and physical tasks, over the years i have gone into powerwashing, carpet cleaning factory cleaning aswell as staying with the window cleaning side with the latest contract we have just took on me and my dad now employ 40 staff, i have recently found myself beginning to dislike what i do, not the physical hands on work but the crap that now comes with it although we have a secretary to carry out wages vat and qoutes etc i still find myself bombarded with forms for health and safety employment law and am now struggling to get my head round TUPE regulations as dave as pointed out all these things are necassary to get the larger contract  but i often look back and prefer it when i was working from big ladders my health and safety was my responsibility and not anybody elses business and if i got a no good waster working for me i could sack him without the fear of having to go through a stupid process  of verbal and written warnings and still be threatened to go to tribunals.
  some of the legislation has been for the good and made our job safer aswell as getting rid of rogue employers but i just feel that things now have gone to far and the costs of having all these things in place make me feel that sometimes its just not worth it.
 

[Moderator David@stives]

Trevor

You are one of my hero's, dont say those things lol

Maybe you need a dedicated qualified H&S guy who has other skills ?

I still need to employ a secretery, will be doing that shortly when i get a bigger office

[trevor perry]

 hi dave
      we do pay for a service that draws up all our employment contracts for workers and gives advice on any situations that arise with workers, as long as we follow their advice then they take responsibility if any tribunals occur, they also cover the health and safety side by writing our company health and safety policy and also a company handbook for all employees they also provide instant help with any health and safety issues that arise, we still write our own risk assessments and methods of work but these are audited by them every year to make sure they are upto date and any ammendments have been made this costs us £400 a month but without it i think we would of dropped many a clanger.
     i think you are right about starting someone to deal specifically with this side of business but am struggling getting my head round paying a wage to somebody that appears to produce no money back into the business and spends my money doing the governments paperwork

[Moderator David@stives]

Trevor

Could be a no brainer, you employ someone which in turn free's you up to go and persue some more profitable work,

[trevor perry]

Trevor

Could be a no brainer, you employ someone which in turn free's you up to go and persue some more profitable work,

you are right dave but i think i have got to a stage where i dont really want the business to grow any bigger, i like going out and working with the lads on jobs coming home and then being able to switch of and enjoy some family time, the business seems to be ruling my life at moment and trying to get a break from it is like a military operation, maybe i feel this way because of year end stuff and also the TUPE regulations i am dealing with at the moment but if things dont change in the next six months i will certainly have to rethink what my goals are.

[gary evans]

Trevor & Dave

We are in the same situation with all this H&S required. We do a lot of HA & thats when you are inundated with electronic paperwork just to get to the next stage. i did a lot of these last year, but, not bothered this year. Most are already sorted or some ridiculous price goes in, i know i,m not dear, but, sometimes theyre nearly half that win.

We have all that H&S that you have Dave, & to be honestmost has been a waste as its created more work tendering, that we never win. I did most a few years ago, one i,ve recently been asked for is constructionline, its just another CHAS-Safecontractor accreditation that you pay for. I was going to do ISO9001, but, have put it on hold with the current climate.

I,ve sorted a lot of stuff & downsized, i employ somebody in the office now & thats a godsend, all invoicing & paperwork is away the sameday if poss & its a lot less hassle, i still get up at 4 but, not so much to do, i used to do 6 hours office & 8-9 on the vans everyday, sat & sun mornings was paperwork.

We,ve lost a lot, but, still have a business, currently i am taking on houses to fill some gaps, & have approx. 30  already, so that looks like good path to get out this recession as they say. We also do PW, CC & Industrial Cleaning especially high level, so we,ll see what comes in.

Gary

[trevor perry]

hi gary
 i wouldnt bother with the ISO 9001 if i was you, we had it for a few years and it didnt get us any extra work but it certainly created more paperwork also the audit they do each year lasts about 3 hours and they charged £500 for the priveledge, they then suggested we audit every six months so that would have made it £1000 a year for 6 hours work.  We told them not to bother and havnt lost any jobs through not having it.

[gary evans]

Cheers Trevor

Thats what i thought to be honest, there,s enough paperwork already.

Thanks

Gary

[williamx]

hi dave
      we do pay for a service that draws up all our employment contracts for workers and gives advice on any situations that arise with workers, as long as we follow their advice then they take responsibility if any tribunals occur, they also cover the health and safety side by writing our company health and safety policy and also a company handbook for all employees they also provide instant help with any health and safety issues that arise, we still write our own risk assessments and methods of work but these are audited by them every year to make sure they are upto date and any ammendments have been made this costs us £400 a month but without it i think we would of dropped many a clanger.
     i think you are right about starting someone to deal specifically with this side of business but am struggling getting my head round paying a wage to somebody that appears to produce no money back into the business and spends my money doing the governments paperwork

Like Trevor I have a company who looks after all the legal paper work that running a sucessful business now require, but they don't charge anything like £400 a month, if you want I can pass you their details.

Back to the tendering part of the post, last year I tendered for a contract for a housing association, they stated that they only wanted local people to do the work and that the quality of the work would be more important than the price.

Anyway the job went to a company who are 120 miles away, who are going to sub contarct the work out to another unknown company.

I also quoted for a hotel, I quoted £9750 and at first I was told by the local manager that I had got the contract, anyway the head office gave it to a company who are 100 miles away who happen to have quoted £9700.

Apparantly the manager at head office knows this guy 

[trevor perry]

hi dave
      we do pay for a service that draws up all our employment contracts for workers and gives advice on any situations that arise with workers, as long as we follow their advice then they take responsibility if any tribunals occur, they also cover the health and safety side by writing our company health and safety policy and also a company handbook for all employees they also provide instant help with any health and safety issues that arise, we still write our own risk assessments and methods of work but these are audited by them every year to make sure they are upto date and any ammendments have been made this costs us £400 a month but without it i think we would of dropped many a clanger.
     i think you are right about starting someone to deal specifically with this side of business but am struggling getting my head round paying a wage to somebody that appears to produce no money back into the business and spends my money doing the governments paperwork

Like Trevor I have a company who looks after all the legal paper work that running a sucessful business now require, but they don't charge anything like £400 a month, if you want I can pass you their details

hi hydro
 yes i would be grateful if you passed me their details what do they charge you and does the amount alter depending how many employees you have,do they have a 24 hour helpline as we have a number of night contracts and when issues arise it is handy to be able to resolve them then instead of waiting till next day.

[williamx]

hi dave
      we do pay for a service that draws up all our employment contracts for workers and gives advice on any situations that arise with workers, as long as we follow their advice then they take responsibility if any tribunals occur, they also cover the health and safety side by writing our company health and safety policy and also a company handbook for all employees they also provide instant help with any health and safety issues that arise, we still write our own risk assessments and methods of work but these are audited by them every year to make sure they are upto date and any ammendments have been made this costs us £400 a month but without it i think we would of dropped many a clanger.
     i think you are right about starting someone to deal specifically with this side of business but am struggling getting my head round paying a wage to somebody that appears to produce no money back into the business and spends my money doing the governments paperwork

Like Trevor I have a company who looks after all the legal paper work that running a sucessful business now require, but they don't charge anything like £400 a month, if you want I can pass you their details

hi hydro
 yes i would be grateful if you passed me their details what do they charge you and does the amount alter depending how many employees you have,do they have a 24 hour helpline as we have a number of night contracts and when issues arise it is handy to be able to resolve them then instead of waiting till next day.

Hi Trevor

I have just spoken to them and they will be able to help you with what you want, they are also a lot cheaper than what you are paying and their quality of work is very good.

Her name is Hilary Rose from Hilary Rose Personnel her contact numbers are

0121 447 7947 and mobile 07927 020 989

I have given her your details from your website, she said she will call you tomorrow if that’s ok, if it is not please call her tonight.

I can recommend her and her services.

[ronnie paton]

After reading some posts it gives me doubts about contnuing the growth of my business, you would expect with 40 employees life would be easier but the impression i get from trevor is its not.

My life has got easier since iv got my second employee but im still in early stages of growth and i took the risk of earning less money but hopefully being able to spend my time helping the business grow.

Iv just currently done my first tendor it was about 200 sites and boy was it hard work, i was lucky to be able to work closely with a pest control company on it but i can see it being a lot of time wasting if your unsuccessful.

[Pj]

So Dave, genuinely honestly as a matter of interest what would you say is a "big contract"?

One that would require/justify such an arsenal of a profile to recommend you.

"Ball park" will do?