[Feen]

I price as per unit, as Ian said in an earlier post. I find it really difficult to estimate how long a job will take even after all these years.
I have counted the units, and estimated in my head how long it would take to do a job, and been miles out with my reckoning.
Take the £1 per window as a case in point, we all know there are windows and windows. A commercial job with easy access, and rows of 4ft square single paned windows in nice plastic frames, you would absolutely fly through these WFP. You come across other windows that have vents in the crossbar below the top opener, these will take so much longer.
Pricing is an art in itself, there are so many variables, even guys with vast experience can still get it wrong sometimes, we are increasingly faced with PVC windows that have started chalking, it's easy to forget to check for this out of enthusiasm, when pricing up what looks like a prime job.
Which ever method you use when pricing, a little bit extra should be added for the unforeseen.
There is nothing as unprofessional as abandoning a job after the first clean because we screwed up on price.

Spot on, Dai. I've been doing this for 2.5 years now and still find pricing very difficult. I did a new one this week for £20. It took me 55 minutes Way out. I will study Ian's post again in more detail. I will also add that I lost sight of part of the reason tat I do this job is that I enjoy it. Getting too analytical and clock watching spoils that. I just need to find that happy medium. Easier said than done

[gerard mcmanus]

good for you ladder/gardener. these earning's are fairly modest and would not make you a millionaire. VAT and other factors intervene.You forgot for instance that you needed twenty vans for your forty blokes etc. You also buy houses car's for personal useetc.

Most get rich by selling a business.

Look, you obviously haven’t followed this conversation or your would have seen me say 40 employees, each with there own vehicle. Where were we bringing into this the cost of the vehicles, it was just a rough example of how it wouldn't be impossible to make a million from window cleaning.

Another point about your post its ladder GARDER, it’s an anagram of my first name Gerard.

[Captain Scarlet]

Well I dont like to blow my own trumpet, but in actual fact my window cleaning firm is a registered charity, I dont get a penny out of it, all donations pay for the equipment, but I do get a warm feeling at the end of a day!

I just love to see peoples faces after they have had their windows cleaned, I target underprivileged areas of my community! But I can imagine, if I was charging, I could easily be on £1-2 per hour.....amazing!

[Clive McDonald]

twenty vans with wfp @ 15k each equals three hundred thousand, plus depot/base costs, plus water production costs.
So you can see that the investment needed would be half a million.

This is called a capitol cost. If you bought a house for this amount the mortgage would use a good deal of your projected earnings. It was this aspect you didn't include.

To really make it you have to get creative.

[ronnie paton]

i would make a hell of a lot more than that from 40 emloyees prob 30-40k per team of two

[Mr.G]

I enjoy window cleaning SO much.. but I can't seem to find any customers. So I've resorted to paying people to allow me to do their windows, I normally pay one pound a window, but I'll pay more to do those wonderfully satisfying Georgian ones.

[gerard mcmanus]

I gave an example of having a million over ten or twenty years, if you are serious with your comment how many staff would you need to have a million pound profit and over what period?

This was the post I was responding to, nothing to do with capital just speaking in general, how many staff would you need. Now I said 40 over 10 -15 years to make one million profit and gave those figures to backup my example.

If you disagree and think it would take more employees fair enough, but backup your statement how many do you think then.

Also someone said 15k per employee, that isn't necessary, trad you could do it for under 3k per employee second-hand van etc. Yes that’s going to be 120k but I never said you were just going to go out and have 40 vans with 40 employees from the get go, you would obviously have to have built your business up to that.

[Clive McDonald]

This is what slows growth down, some of the guys on here run two vans but would love four or even six, but assuming they had the work the capital jump is massive, and it is this that adds the years on to any plan to get rich soon.

[gerard mcmanus]

I would take a long time and agree with your point, it would cost allot, if you bought the rounds say 8k for a 2k round then 2k second hand van, you might be able to put an employee on the road for 10k. I would take say 2 years to make that 10k again with the aid of the employee, bringing in 4k by my example, then you put on another. then one year with the aid of the two emploees bringing in 8k per year altogether, you now have three, 12 a year, then on the four year you have four bring in 16k, then on the fith year you have five employees bringing 20k.... Now you are taking on an employee every 6 months.

By that time you would need a heavy canvasing team.

I never said my figures were gospel, just that is isn't impossible.

[seandyer2003]

I gave an example of having a million over ten or twenty years, if you are serious with your comment how many staff would you need to have a million pound profit and over what period?

This was the post I was responding to, nothing to do with capital just speaking in general, how many staff would you need. Now I said 40 over 10 -15 years to make one million profit and gave those figures to backup my example.

If you disagree and think it would take more employees fair enough, but backup your statement how many do you think then.

Also someone said 15k per employee, that isn't necessary, trad you could do it for under 3k per employee second-hand van etc. Yes that’s going to be 120k but I never said you were just going to go out and have 40 vans with 40 employees from the get go, you would obviously have to have built your business up to that.

40 trad cleaners, you will end up getting sued for a million before you make it, too much potential for an accident!!

[Moderator David@stives]

Well I dont like to blow my own trumpet, but in actual fact my window cleaning firm is a registered charity, I dont get a penny out of it, all donations pay for the equipment, but I do get a warm feeling at the end of a day!

I just love to see peoples faces after they have had their windows cleaned, I target underprivileged areas of my community! But I can imagine, if I was charging, I could easily be on £1-2 per hour.....amazing!

Is this true ?

[ftp]

Yes, all his poles have been donated. 

Lukes post is about a week too early.

[Moderator David@stives]

People have been known to do that sort of thing

[Feen]

Don't charge by the hour!!

Break down windows into a unit cost.

Then it is just a case of walking around a job, counting up the windows, breaking them down into what you consider to be a unit and multiply by whatever you have allowed as your unit cost.

It makes pricing far more accurate and takes out a large element of 'guess-timation' from the equation.

If you are fairly new to the game then you need to know what the average time it takes for an experienced window cleaner to clean your average window.

In basic terms, an average casement window, about 45" tall and about the same in width, with 3 panes of glass, one narrow opening light above a single fixed pane, and a longer opening pane to the one side will take approx 90 seconds to clean, including any detailing thats needed.
And that is to a good standard including the sills wiped down properly.

Oh, the above is for trad window cleaning, but generally, even if WFP, it is best to price up as for trad.

AS Simon said, to begin with you will be miles slower than someone experienced, but these are the people you are pricing against, so you need to be competitive...
AS your skills and speed increase then so do your earnings.

What you charge per window (or unit) is up to you, and is also to a degree governed by your location in the country.
My own unit charge is £1.00, and my rate - per - minute - worked is also £1.00

This does not mean earnings of £60 an hour...not by any stretch of the imagination...there is a world of difference between the rate - per - minute - worked and what you eventually earn per hour.

The rate per minute is the time taken when you are actually at the windows cleaning them, no  allowance for talking to customers, setting up or putting away or driving between jobs, or time off because of the weather/holidays/sickness/breakdowns and so on.

I'm WFP so my time per window is more like 30 seconds rather than 90 seconds and an average semi will take me around 10 minutes to actually 'clean'...but there is no way I will average 6 semi's an hour!!!!

Mr average on a good day will ...er...average about 3 0r 4 an hour over a full days work, oh, and for most an average days work will rarely be more than 6 hours before he (or she) is heading off home. That isn't to say many don't work considerably longer hours, we often work much longer ourselves (6am starts and 5pm finishes).

Something else to ALWAYS remember is that your hourly turnover rate (perceived not actual!!) is not your wage! it is your business income/turnover from which you take your wage....

Have a minimum charge and over and above that, price per unit and NOT per hour.

Ian

I've found this to be very helpful. I have analysed my work closely this week and have learned quite a bit about how well and how badly some of my work is priced. I do quite a lot of sash window work and have now arrived at a figure per pane that will give me the return I need. Similarly, I'll feel more confident pricing modern windows and conservatories. I've realised how much hoppers effect my rate too. Basically they take as much time as the main windows. I'm thinking of basing all my rates on trad now with 25% off for wfp. This way I will get the hourly rate I want (or slightly above to compensate for some old badly priced jobs) and I can give the customer a choice of all trad, wfp up trad down or all wfp without it affecting my hourly rate.

[leapstallbuildings]

Don't charge by the hour!!

Break down windows into a unit cost.

Then it is just a case of walking around a job, counting up the windows, breaking them down into what you consider to be a unit and multiply by whatever you have allowed as your unit cost.

It makes pricing far more accurate and takes out a large element of 'guess-timation' from the equation.

If you are fairly new to the game then you need to know what the average time it takes for an experienced window cleaner to clean your average window.

In basic terms, an average casement window, about 45" tall and about the same in width, with 3 panes of glass, one narrow opening light above a single fixed pane, and a longer opening pane to the one side will take approx 90 seconds to clean, including any detailing thats needed.
And that is to a good standard including the sills wiped down properly.

Oh, the above is for trad window cleaning, but generally, even if WFP, it is best to price up as for trad.

AS Simon said, to begin with you will be miles slower than someone experienced, but these are the people you are pricing against, so you need to be competitive...
AS your skills and speed increase then so do your earnings.

What you charge per window (or unit) is up to you, and is also to a degree governed by your location in the country.
My own unit charge is £1.00, and my rate - per - minute - worked is also £1.00

This does not mean earnings of £60 an hour...not by any stretch of the imagination...there is a world of difference between the rate - per - minute - worked and what you eventually earn per hour.

The rate per minute is the time taken when you are actually at the windows cleaning them, no  allowance for talking to customers, setting up or putting away or driving between jobs, or time off because of the weather/holidays/sickness/breakdowns and so on.

I'm WFP so my time per window is more like 30 seconds rather than 90 seconds and an average semi will take me around 10 minutes to actually 'clean'...but there is no way I will average 6 semi's an hour!!!!

Mr average on a good day will ...er...average about 3 0r 4 an hour over a full days work, oh, and for most an average days work will rarely be more than 6 hours before he (or she) is heading off home. That isn't to say many don't work considerably longer hours, we often work much longer ourselves (6am starts and 5pm finishes).

Something else to ALWAYS remember is that your hourly turnover rate (perceived not actual!!) is not your wage! it is your business income/turnover from which you take your wage....

Have a minimum charge and over and above that, price per unit and NOT per hour.

Ian

I've found this to be very helpful. I have analysed my work closely this week and have learned quite a bit about how well and how badly some of my work is priced. I do quite a lot of sash window work and have now arrived at a figure per pane that will give me the return I need. Similarly, I'll feel more confident pricing modern windows and conservatories. I've realised how much hoppers effect my rate too. Basically they take as much time as the main windows. I'm thinking of basing all my rates on trad now with 25% off for wfp. This way I will get the hourly rate I want (or slightly above to compensate for some old badly priced jobs) and I can give the customer a choice of all trad, wfp up trad down or all wfp without it affecting my hourly rate.

Even with the price differential (or maybe because of it) I think you would be making a rod for your back and over complicating things.
With many customers, if you appear to be giving them some control over how you work, they will often want more.
The way I work is WFP for all the glass (with exceptions like badly leaking windows/oxidisation or some types of doorway or shops).  If they want it any different, they need to get someone else to do it.  It can be quite amicable too.  I've even given them a number for a trad cleaner if they've been polite about it.