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trevor perry

  • Posts: 2454
Re: Half the price??
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2009, 06:39:50 pm »
everyone prices their work according to their circumstances or goals, yet everyone who comes on here and gets undercut always calls the undercutter a cowboy, maybe they are maybe their not and are just willing to work for a lot less. I consider myself pretty low priced but have been undercut on many a contract some have come back because they are not happy with the service they where getting others havnt so i presume their new window cleaner is doing a decent job as said earlier it is just business and you have to price at what your willing to work for to do a good job.
better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove any doubt

mlscontractcleaner

  • Posts: 1483
Re: Half the price??
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2009, 11:32:16 am »
That was my point exactly, just because someone is cheaper than you it doesn't mean that they're cowboys; maybe they're just better at pricing than you!!

It's all well and good saying, " I have my prices, if they don't like it sod 'em ", but it doesn't pay the mortgage if you're always being undercut; and some people make it very easy to undercut them.

After 18 years I earn a very good living, window cleaning, carpet cleaning and day to day contract cleaning. I'm not the cheapest nor the most expensive, but if I quote a price I want to get the job. Having an over inflated price in my head and sticking to it cause " I'm the best and the best costs " is the very reason shops like Asda, Aldi etc take a bucket load of cash each week ........... people like value for money too!!!
Come and talk dirty to us!!!

Re: Half the price??
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2009, 01:09:26 pm »
They at the very least have a positive opinion of yourself, you may end up being the winner in the end.

Well done for that.

Matt

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Half the price??
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2009, 04:45:23 pm »
Pricing can be so subjective, everyone has a different idea of how it should be done and how much they should charge.
For me it has always been about working out what the average pace a window cleaner works at.

Many years ago when I first started I listened to a very experienced window cleaner, who had moved into other areas, including janitorial supplies.
One of the things he pointed out was with regards to the time it takes a window cleaner to clean an average casement window.
How long?
Well if you take an average casement window to be 3 panes of glass, one narrow opening light, another an opening window pane to the side of the narrow one and the final pane the one under the narrow opening light, about 3 or 4 ft tall and about 5ft  wide.
.........90 seconds to clean, including any required detailing.
Think thats slow?
Try it, get the stop watch out and try it for yourself (trad mind!)
It's quicker than you think, and you need to be a fairly accomplished window cleaner to do so...to a high standard mind....

Anyway....You have your average for the average window unit.

By todays standard, where window cleaning is concerned the average turnover for a sole trader window cleaner according to the tax man is around 17k per year. Lop off 5k for overheads, and vehicle depreciation and running costs should be included, plus replacing vehicle about every 5 years (hence 5k) and you are down around 12k for a realistic income....not a great deal.

Once you also allow for setting up and putting away, travelling between accounts and so on, a reasonable target to aim for is about 3 standard semi's an hour.

You are also unlikely to actually spend more than 5 hours a day actually cleaning windows.

And don't forget to allow for holidays -4 or 5 weeks a year - weather affected days - probably 20 or more, not necessarily days off but days where you can't work a full day and those days when you just can't get motivated or other things interrupt your day and you begin to realise why perhaps that the average turnover is only around 17k.

But you know now what the average is, of time taken to clean a window and a house, and of potential turnover.
You can now work out what to price per unit (window) pricing then gets easier, you count up your units, allow for access and you have a consistent method for pricing.

Now you may want to turnover 25k or 35k, but if you want to be competitive and also to remain in business for any length of time then you have to be able to price sensibly.

Charging £20 per standard semi might make you good money (at the average of 3 an hour) but you are going to be at least twice the price of the average window cleaner.
Go in at a fiver and you are going to be half the price of Mr Average...
Neither way is a good way.
You need to compete with Mr Average.

The way you make your money is not to be Mr Average yourself, you don't clean 3 an hour, you aim for 4 or 5.
You become quick AND efficient at what you do.

Charge pennies and you have to go at a hell of a pace all the time and you are never going to make a really good income, and if you are working at the limit of your ability then your standard is going to be poor, you will skip detailing, rub a dry cloth over frosted glass, not bother with sills, take risks on ladders..I know, I've done it!
Why if I just place the ladder in the middle I can get both these windows in one go....all I have to do is dangle my one leg out at 90 degrees as a counter balance!

Running around like a headless chicken and panicking about the recession gets you nowhere...just a lot poorer if you start dropping your prices, and what happens when existing customers hear that you are pricing cheaper than before? Do you drop their prices accordingly just to keep them?

All of the above of course assumes you are trad as against WFP, you are going to be faster with WFP, especially with georgian, leaded and anything over 25ft, but you have far greater setup and running costs to factor in, ergo, your pricing structure needs to be very similar to when you were trad.

Many are constrained by the area in which they live and work, but regardless of where you live, if you are cheaper than everyone else then you are way too cheap!!!!

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Re: Half the price??
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2009, 05:03:59 pm »
i would say he will be insured and proper.

now for the price i couldnt see a proper pic but if excess equipment is needed then even £500 is cheap.

maybe he changed the schedule to less regualar to make it within there budget?

A scissor i reckoned inside ronnie, but yeah 500 is cheap too, i did it for bit more plus access... figuring that after a few cleans it would be down to a day inside, and one out...

Plus money to get ipaf cert, insurances etc, list goes on... muppets


don't use the "m" word, I got no end for using that one. It seems to be one of the worst words that can be used on here :D :D :D

seandyer2003

Re: Half the price??
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2009, 07:27:09 pm »
well i got away with it till you pointed out just now :) muppet  :)

trevor perry

  • Posts: 2454
Re: Half the price??
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2009, 07:49:34 pm »


By todays standard, where window cleaning is concerned the average turnover for a sole trader window cleaner according to the tax man is around 17k per year. Lop off 5k for overheads, and vehicle depreciation and running costs should be included, plus replacing vehicle about every 5 years (hence 5k) and you are down around 12k for a realistic income....not a great deal.


i am glad you said according to tax man its around 17k a year but what you havnt mentioned is a lot of window cleaners still dont declare all their earnings so are probably earning a lot more, also a lot of window cleaners are jehovahs witneses and only do window cleaning part time so they can go preaching in spare time these are supposed to declare all they earn but as said their earnings are for part time work.
  17k a year working just 4 days a week works out at £81 a day and by all the posts on here even on the lowest price work more than this amount is being earned.
better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove any doubt

Re: Half the price??
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2009, 08:00:11 pm »
well i got away with it till you pointed out just now :) muppet  :)
how dare you, you have degraded your self with your muppet insult, so how how double dare you ;D

AuRavelling79

  • Posts: 25124
Re: Half the price??
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2009, 08:23:15 pm »
Ian - are you sure that isn't 17k after costs?
It's a game of three halves!

LWC

  • Posts: 6824
Re: Half the price??
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2009, 08:33:08 pm »
Nice email though, well done on that side.

Shows you might win future quotes purely on your professionlism (is that a word?) I won a contract over someone i know, i was more expensive, but i think my approach won it over.

seandyer2003

Re: Half the price??
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2009, 08:40:28 pm »
Yeah i was chuffed with that, as i wondered how i was percieved by the people i spoke too, i only met here for 10 mins too, and sent 2 emails so i did something right to be thought of so well :)

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Half the price??
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2009, 06:09:22 pm »
Ian - are you sure that isn't 17k after costs?

Nope, its very roughly 17k turnover, not income after expenses!

Trevor,

Yep, agree with you that there is often a few bob of undeclared income, and I also agree that many can do far more than 17k and for myself, on any day where I am reasonably busy anything under £150 would be very disappointing, but I also have days where I'll only do half that...not counting those where I earn nothing of course!! :'(
But it is when you add all the days together at the end of the year, that is when you know what you are really earning, I know some may fiddle their earnings, but the majority of us are pretty honest.

I'm an experienced old pro now, I know how to run a business and over the years I've honed my round and my skills....but it all takes time.

But when pricing and working you just have to have a good system in place, and not just 'guess-timation'.
Those that go in too cheap undervalue themselves, you need to compete of course, especially if you are building your round, but there are other areas that are important, not just price.
Turn up to price up a job with a fag hanging out your mouth, greasy, untidy hair, scruffy appearance, unshaved and so on and you will struggle to get work period.

If you are WFP you could spend well over a grand on a single pole, 5k or more on a system, you just can't risk going in at cut throat prices.
If you want to be considered a professional then you have to know and understand your job inside out, and if you want to get good prices then you also need to 'exude' that professional air...as against the description of the scruff-bag I made earlier!

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

EZclean

  • Posts: 857
Re: Half the price??
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2009, 06:16:22 pm »
this man talks and makes sense  ;D
EZclean - Cleaner Than Water

simon knight

Re: Half the price??
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2009, 06:31:18 pm »

If you are WFP you could spend well over a grand on a single pole, 5k or more on a system, you just can't risk going in at cut throat prices.


Ian
Quote

Thing is if somebody has just lashed out 5k on a system then they'll want to recoup their money asap and do this by putting in silly cheap quotes just to get the work. Not saying it's right but I can see the logic.

trevor perry

  • Posts: 2454
Re: Half the price??
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2009, 08:07:31 pm »
Ian - are you sure that isn't 17k after costs?

Nope, its very roughly 17k turnover, not income after expenses!

Trevor,

Yep, agree with you that there is often a few bob of undeclared income, and I also agree that many can do far more than 17k and for myself, on any day where I am reasonably busy anything under £150 would be very disappointing, but I also have days where I'll only do half that...not counting those where I earn nothing of course!! :'(
But it is when you add all the days together at the end of the year, that is when you know what you are really earning, I know some may fiddle their earnings, but the majority of us are pretty honest.

I'm an experienced old pro now, I know how to run a business and over the years I've honed my round and my skills....but it all takes time.

But when pricing and working you just have to have a good system in place, and not just 'guess-timation'.
Those that go in too cheap undervalue themselves, you need to compete of course, especially if you are building your round, but there are other areas that are important, not just price.
Turn up to price up a job with a fag hanging out your mouth, greasy, untidy hair, scruffy appearance, unshaved and so on and you will struggle to get work period.

If you are WFP you could spend well over a grand on a single pole, 5k or more on a system, you just can't risk going in at cut throat prices.
If you want to be considered a professional then you have to know and understand your job inside out, and if you want to get good prices then you also need to 'exude' that professional air...as against the description of the scruff-bag I made earlier!

Ian
all the things you have said are good advice but in the real world this isnt always true, there are many large firms out there that quote absolute peanuts for jobs, their appearance is very proffesional fancy brochures, very well presented risk assessments and method statements, loads of certificates in training in fact more bulsh-t than you can fit on a shovel but when they are awarded the contract the workforce they send are on just above minimum wage and dont care a bit about the job they are doing.
  i have a succesful business and have been doing it for 26 years and i am sorry to say a lot of the time contracts are awarded mainly on price so long as all other paperwork is in place.
 a cant compete with firms like this but i also cant overvalue my services but i would expect my employees to be earning far more than the 12k average that you stated above.
 
better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove any doubt

mileslake

Re: Half the price??
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2009, 08:59:48 pm »
What a horrible job.

groundhog

  • Posts: 1806
Re: Half the price??
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2009, 08:07:58 am »
That was my point exactly, just because someone is cheaper than you it doesn't mean that they're cowboys; maybe they're just better at pricing than you!!

So if I price 20 three bed houses at £25 each and get half of them thats £250. So lets say you price another 20 at £10 each and get them all, thats £200, and double the work!! Does that make you better at pricing? I think not!!!  ;)

Chameleon

Re: Half the price??
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2009, 09:14:30 am »
It seems the £3 a house brigade are in commercial too, quoted a huge conservatory inside and out a few weeks back, you can see it here -

www.bents.co.uk

I quoted a very fair price and never heard anything back so i got in contact to see what went on and recieved a nice email

"Hi Sean,

Thanks for your email. Our existing window cleaner won the contract in the end, purely down to finance
Your quote was the most detailed and particularly tailored to our needs, thank you for the attention to detail that you gave, it was very much appreciated. I really don’t think there would have been anything else that you could have done to secure the deal to be honest. Yourself and the other contractors that I contacted came in mostly at the same price, our existing window cleaners price I really don’t think could have been matched at £x00.00.
If this wasn’t down to cost then I feel certain that it would have been Dolphin that would have got the deal, your professionalism was outstanding compared to the other companies, you emailed the quote speedily to me and followed it up, certainly the service that we here at Bents expect.
I have kept your details on file and in the future should an opportunity arise either we will contact you again.

Kindest regards and very best wishes"

But i couldnt understand how cleaners got away with such low price!!!  Maybe your on here?? lol IN which case - HOW DO YOU MAKE MONEY HAHA

the guy was half my price??

Out of interest what you reckon for that in and out, once every 8 weeks and not including roof

I think the w/c who got the job... was obviously happy with the price!
Good on him!
Customer happy, he's happy, everyone should be happy for him!

I note only one person has had the guts to quote a price £500
NO-One else???
Why are people so scared to offer a quote ??? ??? ???

Your not going to get the job, it's already gone!

What price did you offer, now that it's immaterial  ??? ??? ???

That's too big a job for me. :'(
I would need three others helping... and I would be looking for  £1200.
Hopefully do it early morning!

There that didn't hurt now did it? ::) ???

Re: Half the price??
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2009, 09:28:19 am »
The reason I didnt put in an offer of a price was it wasnt entirely clear by the picture what it involved (size, access, difficulty-----horizontal cross beams inside?) 

But the figure that jumped into my head at first glance was £650.

Ooooooo....that hurt.  ;D

Nathanael Jones

  • Posts: 5596
Re: Half the price??
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2009, 10:03:18 am »
Looking at that, and considering 1 day in & 1 day out (I reckon it might take an hour or 2 on a 3rd day finishing up too) add in scissor lift costs, IPAF training, etc etc,.. €900 + Vat would be my figure if it was quarterly,.. Maybe a bit less for 2 monthly,...


I would have tried to do a deal where the high internal glass wasn't cleaned as regular as it often is only a bit dusty and that's not visible from the ground. External and lower internal every 2 months, a full clean every 6 months and spread out the price,...