[Col]

The thing i could never understand about licensing window cleaners was why just us?
I could pick a plumber,electrician,joiner,plasterer or any other tradesperson out of the paper,flyer or Yellow Pages and it would never cross my mind to ask them if they were licensed or not.
I know window cleaning is a low cost buisness start up and some shady characters could be attracted to it but surely a handy way with a brush or knowing how lay a laminate floor is just as easy a start up.
What i am trying to say is there are just as many crooks fixing houses as cleaning them.
By the way i work in Scotland and was licensed for many years and was only asked to view my license once by another window cleaner who thought i was poaching work in his area,that was over 20 years ago and since then i have come to the conclusion that it is just another tax we could do without.
The bottom line is the customer/client trusts you and agrees with the price and the quality of the job done or you are out whether you have a piece of laminated paper hanging around your neck or not.
Rant over please discuss.


 

[takeone]

i voted no,just another cash cow for local councils and more big brother 

Agreed! I voted 'No' too.

...I wonder how many of you wouold have voted 'yes' if you were back in your starting up stage???

[gerard mcmanus]

Licensing even if poorly upheld does do some good, a few people asked if the insurance companies enforce licenses and yes they do, they don’t check it but if you have an accident and you are not licensed, the policy is revoked, the same goes if you break the terms of the policy e.g. not exceeding 15ft on a ladder , which I do think is a little low.

Secondly and the main point is you need a policy check done. Do you remember that post about inside and out window cleaning, cleaning prince Charles house and he was an ex burglar. Well he probably wouldn't get a license.

I think that two have responsibility of enforcing licences in Scotland, one the police/ or council and second us. We should be making it known to the public and raising public awareness as much as we can.

Tam K, I think that the SWCLN should be much more up to date, I know they were old figures but its not just that its who is licensed as well. It would be helpful if someone logged on there and could check and know for definite if someone has a licence or not but instead it is all old data, advertising that people who have came into the business in the last three years hasn't got a licence when they do. That’s why I haven't joined the SWCLN.

I know that this information has to come from the council and I know mine is a shambles in my opinion but feel the responsibility for the sort of scheme should be there’s, and the information should be made available on there website. But I guess that’s another topic.

Someone asked about one license for all, it doesn't seem to work that way it is selective the council area. I don’t know if this is to restrict the numbers they way the councils do with taxi drivers, but I see no other reason for this. I am also very angry that the councils even enforce a thing like that with taxi drivers or anyone else. The council or government should never oversee a private business in any way shape or forum. Make sure they don’t have a criminal record yes, but never restrict the opportunity to a selected few, this defeats fair competition and is not in the best interest of the public. So now you see the councils setting the maximum number of taxies and the prices they charge, and licences being sold black market style to people wanting involved in that business.... I never want to see that for window cleaners or any other business.

And not on topic but the government intervening with the banks is just another example of this, they should never get involved, if one bank goes, one will prevail stronger, that’s the fairness of a competitive market, the strong(good business men do well) and weak(banks issuing £2k and day payoff's) disappear. The government has overstepped the mark and created a bigger problem.

[sparklebright]

I voted No !!

I love competition especially from people who drive a tatty car with ladders on the roof - let the customers decide!!!! Professional looking or not so professional looking its up to them - there is a market for every type of WC

Its called fair trade !

Don't be afraid of the competition use it to your advantage!!!

Do you know what? I voted Yes but having read a few comments like this I'm not so sure. If it's not policed and let's be honest it won't be, then what's the point?

If you look like a ratbag then some people wil think twice, if it look perfectly normal some people will still think twice, it's about building trust.

Last summer I saw group of 4 lads pile out of a rusty skoda and descend upon a few not very large (4 bed) houses, all wearing baseballs caps and hoodies, it must be quite intimidating for older people and they must be signing on to make money 4 people to a house.
Most customers wouldn't put up with this but some would

They wouldn't apply for a licence and if you ask them they would say something unrepetable...

If it's not enforced then what is the point?

[pingu]

Now if licensing etc was linked to the Taxmans database I'm sure as eggs are eggs it would all be taken a little more seriously but as for local councils enforcing a licence system...sorry but that is laughable at best.

Another thing is that without the need for individual to carry some form of i.d...what is the point of it all anyhow?

Cheers

[R W C]

Its worth it got a new customer today 3 visits will pay for 1 year’s fee for the FWC.

She asked me for reference, and I pointed out the logo on my business card, she was happy with that and will check with the FWC.

Even if you are a well presented professional, tell me another way to get a reference sorted as quickly as me pointing to a logo on my business card that she has in her hand?

I show my CRB certificate,

[DASERVICES]

I think that two have responsibility of enforcing licences in Scotland, one the police/ or council and second us. We should be making it known to the public and raising public awareness as much as we can.

Tam K, I think that the SWCLN should be much more up to date, I know they were old figures but its not just that its who is licensed as well. It would be helpful if someone logged on there and could check and know for definite if someone has a licence or not but instead it is all old data, advertising that people who have came into the business in the last three years hasn't got a licence when they do. That’s why I haven't joined the SWCLN.

I know that this information has to come from the council and I know mine is a shambles in my opinion but feel the responsibility for the sort of scheme should be there’s, and the information should be made available on there website. But I guess that’s another topic.

100% agree with your comment above that licensed window cleaners also need to take a part but the information supplied by the Council needs to be correct.

This is a turning point which we have been pushing and more Councils will be following, Stirling Council have now proceeded which makes it very easy for us the licensed window cleaner to know if an unlicensed window cleaner poaches our work.

Each window cleaner has to declare who they work for or their trading name and this is now on a list on their website which is updated. The lists on the SLWCN are upto date with the Councils who have agreed to work with us.

On Weds I had a meeting and I thought I would never here this that some of the licensing personnel are a waste of time and that the SLWCN should now liase direct with higher authoring.

Just to give an update what is happening:-

Renfrewshire 130% increase in licensed window cleaners, Police in unmarked cars checking
East Ayrshire will now be targetting all Commercial Companies
Edinburgh, full time officer appointed on the job working closely with the SLWCN, over 40 so far caught
Falkirk, on going Police and Enforcement Officer checks
Strlingshire, people now getting caught out with new enforcement officer
North Lanark, some very good local community Police Officers checking window cleaners in their areas
Fife, members working very closely with the Police and several caught out

Areas that are a totally waste of time but will change soon, Glasgow, Dumfries, Highlands, Argyll

We have been given the green light so will tackle these one at a time.

But as said we ALL have to work together and I see this happeing in some areas where members have recognised this. Wait until the summer and we will see hoards coming out of the woodwork so we need this to work to protect our livelyhood.

Can it work in England, I think the answer is why did the AWPC failed because no one backed it and you need members to work together. This is key, this is why it is now working in Scotland because we are all working together.

Some body would need to collectively work with it's members and protect their interests and members need to support it. This is the only way licensing could ever work.

[williamx]

Why do we need a licence?,

It will stop the dole cheats?, No it won't, do you really think that someone who is willing to break the law by working and claiming benefits is going to stop because he needs a piece of paper. If you want to stop these people then you can make a telephone call to the benefits fraudline which will cost you nothing.

It will slow down the newbies who are coming into the trade, no it won't, they will just get a licence.

It will stop the underpricing of work, well it won't stop that either, a cleaner will always price his work at a rate that he is happy with.

Some cleaners who are already working might have their licence application turned down, because of something silly they did in the past, they have now lost their business and are unemployed.

Once the councils have licencing in place, whats to stop them adding more requirements that window cleaners need to do to carry on working, for example they could insist that all window cleaners need to have vans, that all cleaners need to wear a uniform, they can only work at set times and days of the week, etc etc.

and finally, do you really believe that the councils are capable of enforcing the licence scheme, at the moment we are all supposed to have a licence if we have a tv, yet there are over a million people in the country who don't have one.

Just say NO NO NO

[gerard mcmanus]

a little more seriously but as for local councils enforcing a licence system...sorry but that is laughable at best.

Sorry but I have to disagree, firstly I think you are thinking inside the box a little and I don’t mean that they have to go out and start cornering window cleaners.... for instance.....

If the local council created an online portal linked with the DVLA and allow members of the public and licensed window cleaners to report someone they thought was working without a licence. They could enter there regy and give there e-mail address, then all the council have to do is look it up, if they are licensed send an e-mail out to the person that reported it saying yes they are licensed and insured, or send the person who isn't licensed a forum given them x amount of time to apply or it with be passed to the police.

A little ingenuity can go along way!

They are taking our money for the licence, so they sure as hell better be ready to do something for that money.

And I know that solution wont fit every situation but it will catch out most and do allot better than doing nothing at all.

[gerard mcmanus]

Actually they wouldnt even have to link it to the DVLA, just have window cleaners give the regy of the cars they use and let a computer look it up, it could be done automatically.

[DASERVICES]

a little more seriously but as for local councils enforcing a licence system...sorry but that is laughable at best.

Sorry but I have to disagree, firstly I think you are thinking inside the box a little and I don’t mean that they have to go out and start cornering window cleaners.... for instance.....

If the local council created an online portal linked with the DVLA and allow members of the public and licensed window cleaners to report someone they thought was working without a licence. They could enter there regy and give there e-mail address, then all the council have to do is look it up, if they are licensed send an e-mail out to the person that reported it saying yes they are licensed and insured, or send the person who isn't licensed a forum given them x amount of time to apply or it with be passed to the police.

A little ingenuity can go along way!

They are taking our money for the licence, so they sure as hell better be ready to do something for that money.

And I know that solution wont fit every situation but it will catch out most and do allot better than doing nothing at all.

Being worked on

Originally all was reported through Crimestoppers but had to be stopped due to the amount of calls coming through, would not look good on their performance rates

[jeff1]

 would like to see the license but.........

I would like to see value for my money and not some fat council guy sitting on his backside all day tied up with paperwork and the lack of attitude because its to cold for him outside.

I also don't agree with this area license like they have in Scotland, a taxi driver doesn't stop his taxi to kick out his passenger to say 'sorry I'm  not covered for this area you'll have to get another taxi'.. So why do you have to have half a dozen licenses to cover different areas.

I voted Yes.

[gaz1984mcc]

Why do you all need licensing cant you just look after your own business and stop trying to stop someone else from making a living. What makes you think that window cleaning is such a special trade that it needs a licence. I'm actually a joiner and which ive doing since i was 16.  i dont need a licence to ba a joiner i just need to know how to do my job thats all that matters to customers. it should be the same for window cleaning aslong as you know how to clean windows (it's not the hardest job in the world is it guys) and your paying the right taxes and N.I. why should you care after all it will be there customers who decide if they want to use them and if there no good they will soon get the push.

can you imagine all the the different licenses there could be if it gets the go ahead

Cashier licence
postman licence
joiner licence
litter picker licence
valeter licence
labourer licence
wheely bin cleaner licence

comon guys it's just competition live with it and get over it

[simon knight]

I don't think that licences will prevent the dole-boys any more than licences have detered unlicenced mini-cabs.

But that's not the reason I voted against.

If they were free once you had passed certain criteria then I'd be inclined to want them in England if only to make it a little harder for the benefit fraudsters to nick our work. But the point is they won't be free they'll cost £100s per district (and I cover 5) and they'll keep putting up the annual cost..that's a guarantee!

And thank you I already pay 30% to HMRC and don't feel disposed to pay yet another tax to local councils in SW London, who by the way will do nothing to police the streets where I ply my trade.

As for plod...don't make me laugh!!!

[pjulk]

I voted no and my reasons are.

Will the council do anything about it like enforcing it.

I can see it would be just another money maker for local councils.

If they were to go round and make checks frequently i would be all for licencing.

[gerard mcmanus]

Cashier licence
postman licence
joiner licence
litter picker licence
valeter licence
labourer licence
wheely bin cleaner licence

If it helps to stop illegal workers who contribute nothing to the country, sometimes being paid less than minimum wage by unscrupulous employers, then I say bring it on.

Also do you know many self-employeed cashiers, post men, litter pickers. These are not trades and trades like laborours cant be compared. A window cleaner take a month income from one customer and allot of dole boys can tie up a large piece of that market, joiners etc do work generally as a one off for biulding contractors sell stair cases etc but not the same customer every month, also you wont find a dole boy taking the market from a joiner as they have more expensive tools to buy, which a dole boy isnt likely to fork out.

[Moderator David@stives]

Absolutely NOT

[gaz1984mcc]

your right about cashiers, post men and litter pickers not being proper trades (but they are still a job and they too would not like someone to take there job from them for a cheaper price). But as far as being self employed the fact is being self employed has got nothing to do with wether you get paid by the same customer each time or if you do a one off. That has got nothing to do with being self employed yes joiners do sub contract to builders but also have there own private work in which they get paid directly by each customer they work for. Window cleaners and self employed joiners will both have to fill in the same tax return forms each year and thats a fact. The tax man does not care if you get paid by the same person each month all there interested in is how much you earn and how much you pay out which will result in how much tax you will have to pay each year. Also there are tens of thousands of labourers who are self employed.

All a licence would do is create uneeded work for the jobs for the boys brigade down at the council.

Cashier licence
postman licence
joiner licence
litter picker licence
valeter licence
labourer licence
wheely bin cleaner licence

If it helps to stop illegal workers who contribute nothing to the country, sometimes being paid less than minimum wage by unscrupulous employers, then I say bring it on.

Also do you know many self-employeed cashiers, post men, litter pickers. These are not trades and trades like laborours cant be compared. A window cleaner take a month income from one customer and allot of dole boys can tie up a large piece of that market, joiners etc do work generally as a one off for biulding contractors sell stair cases etc but not the same customer every month, also you wont find a dole boy taking the market from a joiner as they have more expensive tools to buy, which a dole boy isnt likely to fork out.

[DASERVICES]

Can someone tell me how long the Scottish system has been in place? and do the stats show an annual increase in licensed WC'ers (no matter how small).

The law was introduced in 1982.

The stats on the website were put up to shame the Councils to get their act together which is now in a publication on the "Civic Act" which lawyers get to read etc..

It has now served it's purpose and what we are know getting Council's to do is set a regular target on having xxx window cleaners checked , xxx licenses issued, xxx newspaper campaigns on a yearly basis.

[gerard mcmanus]

I think you are kind of missing my point there, in my opinion the window cleaning industry is more funerable to cowboys than other trades because of two things. One you can start up for a fairy low cost, and unlike other trades we repeat the work on a regular basis, so they dont have to advertise as much once they establish there under qouted round.

And yes someone on the dole working as a cashier is taking up a job, but thats more to do with the employer than them so being self-employeed does have something to do with it however the responsability is on them not to take jobs like that so I do agree with your point to some extent.