[williamx]

Now, if a license was introduced, and there was some form of communication between the licensing office and the tax man; those window cleaners who have 'proper jobs' and work part time as window cleaners would find it more difficult to conceal their income; especially if 'us' window cleaners with licenses policed the licenses held by new window cleaners.

Other than that, I can't see the point of it; and there's no guarantees that one government department can or will share information with another.

So whats the point of paying for a licence, when to make it work effectivly, we have to police it.

At the moment you can inform your local inland revenue office about these part time window cleaners without the need to pay for the privilage.

A lot of the people who are shouting for a licence are only doing it because they think that the part-timers and dole-boys will dissappear and they will cream up the whole neighbourhood.

This is not going to happen, even if all of the councils employed thousands of enforcment officers to police it.

This has been proven in the other licence schemes that are now in place.

There are still Taxi drivers who are not insured or licenced, yet the police and the local council regulary carry out spot checks.

There are still many gas fitters who are not Corgi Registred who carry on working on gas boilers and they can go to prison if they are caught, yet the corgi licence has not stopped them.

There are thousands and thousands of people who watch tv's yet they can be fined £1000s' or go to prison, there are also hundreds of detector vans on the streets every day, but they cannot stop it.

So do you really think that a window cleaning licence is going to be more effective than the other licence schemes, that are failing day after day.

You will say, "well it will catch a few" and yes it will and these few will be replaced by others, who see a harmless and easy way of making money.

There are already many ways and methods of stopping these people working in our industry, why not use them, or do you really want to pay out your hard earned money and still have to police the licence as well.

Even if the law was changed and the customers' were held responsible for employing an un-licenced window cleaner, it still would not stop the part timers or dole boys.

If you want to prove to your customers that you are trustworthy, then you can apply to your local police for a copy of any details they hold on you, its the same form that you need to have if you want to go to the USA and have a past record, you can then give each of you customers a copy, I don't think that many will be that bothered, but at least you will feel better and it is only going to cost you £10.

[Ian_Giles]

This thread is 7 pages long so I've not read every page and post written, my apologies if I cover something already said....

I don't agree with licencing per se, it isn't well policed in Scotland and it also means there are often conditions attached, ie, got a criminal record? Then forget it! No licence for you!!

But I do think that all businesses and not just window cleaning should be registered (as stated on a previous page) like the Americans do.
This doesn't mean getting a licence as such but it does mean that you are at least recorded as having a business doing window cleaning/decorating/bricklaying/mechanic...whatever.

Exactly how it would work I don't know! Somehow linked to the tax office I suppose, and of course linked to the local council.
Maybe it won't stop those claiming benefits completely, but at least if you see someone you suspect of operating without being registered then...whatever their trade, then at least they can be checked out.

A licence has to be renewed at further cost, but simple registration need only be updated should you move house and so on and of course if you finish in whatever job it is you do then you should also be required to de-register.
But who polices it??
Mmm....well I suppose it really comes down to any authorised people to do so; the police might have a report of someone and feel their collar and check their details, maybe a health and safety officer or other council official might see a trader and ask to check out their details.

Maybe not that different from a licence as such I know but when you submit your tax details you register your business with them as it is, but of course there is no way for anyone to know if you are a bona fide business or not.
But if you are also registered with your local authorities then at least it makes it easier to to be checked out.
The problem with 'applying for a licence' is that you have to supply no end of personal info and someone or some committee will decide on your suitability, having the power to either grant or deny you said licence.
But who the hell has the right to decide whether I can be a window cleaner or not? Or a car mechanic?

Most of us who are already bona fide window cleaners are only really interested in weaning out the dole cheats...aren't we?

Ian

[tomy jackson]

yes and disabled ?

[Ian_Giles]

Ewan,
Your last post has been removed, you can't come on here and infer someone is an arrogant prat.

RE-post if you must but keep your reply polite AND professional.

Antagonistic argument is not wanted on the forum.

[leapstallbuildings]

De-lurking to say a resounding NO to licensing.

[Tosh]

So whats the point of paying for a licence, when to make it work effectivly, we have to police it.

At the moment you can inform your local inland revenue office about these part time window cleaners without the need to pay for the privilage.

I reckon the police/council have things that they consider more important to do with their time than to spend limited resources on checking that window cleaners have licenses.

Therefore the only people who could 'police' a license would be bona fide window cleaners with licenses.

[williamx]

So whats the point of paying for a licence, when to make it work effectivly, we have to police it.

At the moment you can inform your local inland revenue office about these part time window cleaners without the need to pay for the privilage.

I reckon the police/council have things that they consider more important to do with their time than to spend limited resources on checking that window cleaners have licenses.

Therefore the only people who could 'police' a license would be bona fide window cleaners with licenses.

If thats the case and I agree with you, then there is no point in us paying for a licence, all we have to do is let the revelent authorities know the details of the cleaners, we suspect are trading as a window cleaner when they shouldn't be.

[cozy]

For those who would like licensing, be careful what you wish for, you might get it.
The more regulation you introduce, the more you invite the costs. For instance if a trade is worth regulating, it's worth taxing. As far as I am aware in Britain you don't have to charge VAT on every customer, if that happened you would lose 15% on your price in one go. If you didn't include VAT in your price then that would mean VAT evasion.
Before you know it your tax bills would be alot more seriously looked at.
The main reason I mention this is ENVY!. I wish it would be so easy on the continent to start a business as it seems to be in the UK. Would any of you lads be happy for tight regulation as this, if it meant cutting down the dodgey/dole cheaters?

[Clive McDonald]

Re lurking and amusing use of the word de-lurking, it refers mainly to the two main selling techniques of a street or market trader. One is to stand out the front and greet people, the other is to lurk unseen or unnoticed and then when some one shows any interest shoot out and . march them into the shop to make a purchase. George Cole as a spiv in the early st trinians hid in bushs' and then shot out when someone metioned nylons.

Which of course brings me to Ian Giles, lurking mod, who suddenly leaps out and deletes peoples comments, and then has the gaul to say....

who the hell has the right to decide whether i can be a window cleaner or not?

[gerard mcmanus]

Re lurking and amusing use of the word de-lurking, it refers mainly to the two main selling techniques of a street or market trader. One is to stand out the front and greet people, the other is to lurk unseen or unnoticed and then when some one shows any interest shoot out and . march them into the shop to make a purchase. George Cole as a spiv in the early st trinians hid in bushs' and then shot out when someone metioned nylons.

Which of course brings me to Ian Giles, lurking mod, who suddenly leaps out and deletes peoples comments, and then has the gaul to say....

who the hell has the right to decide whether i can be a window cleaner or not?

If it degrades to name calling it should be deleted, and I really cant see anything that Ian has said there that would cause offense to someone?

[Tosh]

FWC is the authoritative organisation for window cleaners that is recognised, if that doesn’t sit well with some individuals on here and they made the decision not to be a member that’s there choice,

The FWC appears to me to be a self-serving organisation.  Don't you remember when Philip Hanson asked to look at their accounts (which is something any member can do), yet they put him off, giving him excuse after excuse till his membership ran out; then they wouldn't renew it! 

Therefore he couldn't look at their accounts!  (Philip Hanson was an ex-accountant and the editor of the Professional Window Cleaning Magazine at the time). 

What did they have to hide?

Then what was that business about the sale of their property, which sounded like some executive members made a lot of money; but it was all shushed up?  I don't know the full story on this mind.

So I'm not going to part with my hard-earned to give to some organisation that has intangible benifits for me, but a lot of benifits for the organisers.

[tompoole]

yep good idea, maybe £250 a year

[leapstallbuildings]

Re lurking and amusing use of the word de-lurking, it refers mainly to the two main selling techniques of a street or market trader. One is to stand out the front and greet people, the other is to lurk unseen or unnoticed and then when some one shows any interest shoot out and . march them into the shop to make a purchase. George Cole as a spiv in the early st trinians hid in bushs' and then shot out when someone metioned nylons.

Which of course brings me to Ian Giles, lurking mod, who suddenly leaps out and deletes peoples comments, and then has the gaul to say....

who the hell has the right to decide whether i can be a window cleaner or not?

I used the word "de-lurking" in this thread.  I wasn't aware it had another meaning.

[martinsadie]

the Lurkers from 78
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG_uWZxKaoU

[Clive McDonald]

I suppose it has lots of meanings. I've always found the word funny and like your use of it. It was really just a device to get ian when he wasn't expecting it.

It's a tradition on this forum to attack the mods.

[Ian_Giles]

Re lurking and amusing use of the word de-lurking, it refers mainly to the two main selling techniques of a street or market trader. One is to stand out the front and greet people, the other is to lurk unseen or unnoticed and then when some one shows any interest shoot out and . march them into the shop to make a purchase. George Cole as a spiv in the early st trinians hid in bushs' and then shot out when someone metioned nylons.

Which of course brings me to Ian Giles, lurking mod, who suddenly leaps out and deletes peoples comments, and then has the gaul to say....

who the hell has the right to decide whether i can be a window cleaner or not?

Slumpbuster, if I read a post that can be considered flaming then I'll delete it, myself or Dave can't read every post written on here, but when we come across one that goes against the spirit of the forum then it has to go.
When a few are noted by the same author then we tend to check back on their previous posts and check on their tone.
In the past some people have been antagonistic in a great many of their replies, some people will read them and will be put off posting for fear of being attacked or derided.
Sometimes it is just because someone is angry and simply needs to be pulled up, unfortunately many hide their email addresses so what would have been a private word to tone things down becomes a public one on the open forum.

As for the comment I made that you referred to, if you read my post it should have been obvious that when I said
'who the hell has the right to decide whether i can be a window cleaner or not?'
it was aimed at whatever committee might be appointed to decide whether or not I was suitable material to be licenced as a window cleaner.....should I ever have to apply for a licence that is!

Ian

[Moderator David@stives]

FWC is the authoritative organisation for window cleaners that is recognised, if that doesn’t sit well with some individuals on here and they made the decision not to be a member that’s there choice,

The FWC appears to me to be a self-serving organisation.  Don't you remember when Philip Hanson asked to look at their accounts (which is something any member can do), yet they put him off, giving him excuse after excuse till his membership ran out; then they wouldn't renew it! 

Therefore he couldn't look at their accounts!  (Philip Hanson was an ex-accountant and the editor of the Professional Window Cleaning Magazine at the time). 

What did they have to hide?

Then what was that business about the sale of their property, which sounded like some executive members made a lot of money; but it was all shushed up?  I don't know the full story on this mind.

So I'm not going to part with my hard-earned to give to some organisation that has intangible benifits for me, but a lot of benifits for the organisers.

Tosh

At the time the FWC could question the motives of Philip Hanson, not saying there was any, but they could question it.

Also dont you think it was a coincidence that the APWC was formed after all the hype on the forum, dont you think everyone was beaten into a frenzy of Fed bashing.

If I was a fed committee man at the time i would not of bowed down to any of it.

Yes some of the fed committee members did benefit from the sale of the building , but they had no greater entitlement than any other Assurance society member at that time. All Assurance society members got equal pay outs, you have to remember it was the society who owned the building and not the fed.

The Fed is now run without owning any assets and there is nothing left for anyone to profit from, There are some great committee members at the moment and they are all working hard to make the fed better, as an employer i find the advice the fed offer second to none. Even as an individual i would reccommend  them as a way of enhancing your business profile.

I get asked lots of times how i have grown my business and one point where people dont believe me is when i say one thing you need to do is to show professionalism and one way of doing that is to be accredited to some organisations.

Just pick up any tender document and you will know where i am coming from, Increasingly you get the question, what quality assurances/ h&S assurance/ monitoring proccesses do you have in place and what accreditations or trade organisations do you belong to ?

Why do you think they ask these questions and what weight do you think they carry ? for me they are priceless.

I have 4 badges , soon to more and i would say having a relevent trade accreditation is a must for my business.

Dave

[Tosh]

Dave,

As I understand it; what-ever Philip Hanson's motives were for wanting to see the FWC's accounts; he had a right to do so under their rules.

But the FWC kept on 'putting him off' until his membership ran out, then refused to renew it and wouldn't let him look at the accounts.

Why?  If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to hide.  I've ran the accounts for a large organisation; and I'd've shown them to anyone!  Why?  Because I had nothing to hide!

What did the FWC have that they wanted to hide?  Expensive dinners at posh restaraunts and putting it through the books as 'entertainment expenses'?

Who knows?  They wouldn't let Philip see them!

=====================================================

And with regards to the sale of the FWC's premises; you've indicated that some committee members made money (probably a lot since it was sold at the peak of the property market), but it would be interesting to know how much they were paying for the FWC premises prior to the sale, and what they're paying now; probably rental costs?

I bet it's a lot more; and it's FWC members who're paying for it; when (maybe and probably); the office accommodation could've been more cost effective without the sale.

I mean, if these committee members were so concerned with window cleaners, wouldn't it make sense to keep the cheaper premises, rather than rent somewhere at a higher cost which the members have to pay for?

I say again, I won't pay into the FWC which may have intangible benifits for me, but many benifits for certain members of the committee.

At least that's the way it looks to me.

[Tosh]

So can the mods just lock and unlock threads at will then!!!!!!!!!

 

Yes of course; they can also amend and/or delete them.

There's also a seperate area of the forum they can discuss 'us posters too'; I used to be privy to it when I was a mod, and we'd talk about certain members if we thought they were being naughty.

For example, posts in the moderators area were stuff like , 'KEEP AN EYE ON YWCS - HE'S PROBABLY A COMMUNIST', and others of similiar ilk.

[Moderator David@stives]

Tosh

The FED have legal requirements where they cant abuse members money, they are covered by certain legislation.

Would you have handed over your accounts to who you thought might be a  potential competitor, and be dictated to, i certainly wouldn't.

PH membership was revoked, which the Fed were entitled to do.

In the last 4 years I have seen both sides of the coin and know the ins and outs of the full story.

At the time there was lots of suspicion and paranoia, just like the Russians and the Americans in the cold war, do you think either side would fully disclose what was going on behind closed doors.

As for Building ownership, do you keep the money locked up, or do you release it for member benefits, just have a look at whats been achieved in the last 4 years.

Anyway the fed has nothing to do with me, but i know it is good for my business, and I like the people running it and I trust them, I also know there hearts are in the right place and a lot more can be achieved.

YWCS

Why you frowning, you look like you think i am abusing the privelidge or something, hang on I will frown back