[Stuart Webster]

Do they have any power outside of a companies workplace?

Can they get involved in domestic issues? Are there any exaples of this with regard to a Sole Trader and a domestic customer?

[rosskesava]

Hi Stuart

The nearest thing I can find is

http://www.tuc.org.uk/h_and_s/tuc-4702-f0.cfm

[Stuart Webster]

far too many people in Britain and the rest of Europe are excluded from health and safety not by the law, but because their employers have forced them into bogus self-employment


thanks for the link Ross, my point is made, that it never happens, or rarely applies to sole traders, but to employees and commercial locations

[rosskesava]

Hi Stuart again

I posted this link on another thread but read page 5 and the under the heading 'Lone Working and Portable Ladders'.

It says there for (I think) that self employed w/c's are maybe outside HSE rules as what's written does not apply to them and added to which, I cannot find any HSE anything about self employed window cleaners any where on their website.

I've just e mailed them about this and when I get a reply - I'll post it.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf#search='HSEwindow%20cleaning'

[Stuart Webster]

Thanks Ross,

I'm not able to open pdf files for some reason, but will keep the link

Stu

[Reflective Property Services]

It says there for (I think) that self employed w/c's are maybe outside HSE rules as what's written does not apply to them and added to which, I cannot find any HSE anything about self employed window cleaners any where on their website.

I've just e mailed them about this and when I get a reply - I'll post it.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf#search='HSEwindow%20cleaning'

I had a look at this pre-WAHD. Note that it was first published in 2003, and as such may be now superseded by the new regs, it may be worth double checking how to read this in conjunction with them

[rosskesava]

Hi Reflective Property Services

I've had an e mail back from the HSE which is not surprisingly non committal.

It's simply states that the HSE guide lines are there to ensure safe working practises for the self employed.

I am intrigued as to why they they state 'guide lines' ?

I have e mailed them back on that point.

With regards the pre WAHD link I gave, that is, according to them, still valid and the WAHD changes nothing.

To copy and paste the whole reply would go  into the realms of the impossible as there were so many links in it and referances to so many things that it would be all muddled but I've asked for them be specific or to state that they won't be specific.

Watch this space...........

[Philip Hanson]

An interesting thread this, which serves to highlight the confusion that still remains regarding the new regulations.

The draft document is HERE

Firstly, the existing regs for work at height are found in about 6 different acts, and the new Work At Height Regs (WAHR) revoke most of them:

the proposed WAHR will consolidate the existing requirements into one place...The draft Regulations set out at Schedule 8 which parts of these instruments would be revoked by the WAHR.

Pages 8-9.

Hence, the existing regs (on which the guidlines linked to above are based) will effectively cease to apply.

As regards the HSE's use of "Guidelines", it workes generally like this:  New regulations are set out in legal form and form the basis for the law.  Because they are often technical(and in legal language), they can be difficult to understand, therefore alongside them the HSE produces "Guidlines" to show how they will interperet these new laws.

With the WAHR, the legal regs are set out on pages 30-54, with the guidelines on pages 56-106.  Those guidelines linked to above are the equivalent of those but for the old regs that are superceded on April 6th.

Stuart wrote (with regard to the HSE)

Do they have any power outside of a companies workplace?

Can they get involved in domestic issues? Are there any exaples of this with regard to a Sole Trader and a domestic customer?

The regulations are the law, and apply in all situations (except to the armed forces).  It doesn't matter if you are self-employed, employed, working on a commercial building or on a domestic property.  We must obey them, or we risk prosecution.

(3) The requirements imposed by these Regulations on an employer shall also apply to—
(a) a self-employed person, in relation to work—

Page 35

-Philip

[rosskesava]

Hi Philip

168 pages of it.

Help.

It gets worse and more complicated or is that the EU for you?

How the hell could anyone get done under the new laws? The HSE bloke would have to be a walking encyclopdia just on that one subject?

[stevekennedy]

How the hell could anyone get done under the new laws? The HSE bloke would have to be a walking encyclopdia just on that one subject?

Interesting observation ross. I'll bet the HSE have some kind of summary document that points out the main findings without all the legal jargon. Probably about 5 pages. They should make this available to the guy in the street then there would be far more chance of the regs being followed.

[mark f]

They dont even know what the regs are about themselves!!

 I was on the phone to my local hs inspector yesterday and he said they werent expecting the regs till after the election and that they havnt even been trained yet!!

 He did say r.e the use of ladders that although they are not to be banned that they should only be used if there is no reasonable alternative.

 I gave him an account of my situation e.g the fact i work in a rural historic setting where the cottages often have oxidised paint which would effect the effectiveness of the wfp systems and he said i have a case for still using ladders. he said maybe i should draw up a document showing this evidence in order to defend my case (yeh right!!)

 I asked him about suitable stability devices to which he said often they make ladders less safe!?!?!?!?!?!? : (confused???)

 Anyhow after consideration im going to get kitted out with wfp and then if i get stopped on a job where ladders are needed cos a customer isnt happy or whatever i can argue that i do have the gear.

 Oh yes and getting back to the subject of this thread!! He also said it does effect everyone although they wont be hopping all over self employed window cleaners to start with but will be trying to improve work habits, but he said that time will no doubt come.

[rosskesava]

I've just been going through the TUC website.

The HSE have jurisdiction in any place and at anytime where work is carried out for renumeration of any kind. By that I understand it means for money, as a returned favour or out of kindness, consideration or any other reason.

It also states that ignorance is no excuse and that anyone carrying out a job of work is 'beholdent to familiarise themselves with the job of work undertaken and the laws, sublaws and relivant proceedures pertaining to the job of work being carried out with all due care and concideration for any other person within that that working environment' and that 'failure to do so constitutes a breach of safe working practise whether knowingly or unknowingly'.

And so it goes on and on in the usual mind boggling goobledy gook.

Basically, it seems that if you are working anywhere, then the HSE have jurisdiction which means if you have an accident, and they consider it in the public interest or if you have breached their rules, then you can get done for it.

The problem is, just what are their rules are regarding self employed w/c's and exactly what is the HSE role and when would it be likely to be enforced or acted upon?

I'm now on my sixth e mail to them over this and I still have not got a straight answer.