[Ian_Giles]

Holy CR*P 30,000

And some of us are griping about the tightening up of the regs, those figures are horrendous

Small wonder they are doing as they are doing (or at least hoping to)

Ian

[Stuart Webster]

he told me the year before last the HSE says 13 window cleaners died and just under 30000 (yes 30 THOUSAND) had a serious accident

I doubt that!

[windows_chepstow]

he told me the year before last the HSE says 13 window cleaners died and just under 30000 (yes 30 THOUSAND) had a serious accident

it shocked me

Shocked me too; that you could believe those figures.

For a start this site says there's approximately 26,000 window cleaners in the UK:

http://www.connexions.gov.uk/jobs4u/summary.cfm?id=501

I'm not going to insult your intelligence by explaining why then, it's not possible for 30,000 window cleaners to have had a serious injury in one year.

I've also did this thread not so long ago:

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6411.msg47467#msg47467

Which I think showed that Fishermen had the No 1 UKs most dangerous job and window cleaners didn't even feature in the top ten!

I even doubt if ten window cleaners do die a year from falls.  Where's the statistics?  It's just a figure banded about.  Window cleaners dying from falls do make the news.  A few months ago an Irish window cleaner fell and died in Dublin.  If ten die a year, I should hear of one at least once every two months.

I agree window cleaning has its risks.  So does driving, crossing roads and eating saturated fats.  But if it's done sensibly; then the risk is greatly decreased.

Your friend has obviously got his facts wrong.

Regards.

Tosh.

[Duke]

If it was THAT dangerous.....I reckon I'd be safer in Iraq....

[windows_chepstow]

Well if we take it that there are 26,000 window cleaners and out of them 30,000 had serious accidents - blimey - 4,000 must have just got rid of their crutches; then fell straight off their ladders AGAIN.

[pjulk]

Find me an example of a window cleaner dying as a result of domestic work, or a case of lawyers even being involved, you will be hard pressed im sure .

Click here:
R & T Times Article

[Duke]

yeah, but 69 for cripes sake....perhaps a little unwise.....

[matt]

i know of 2 who died from falls in wiltshire in the last 18 months

the figures sounded high, BUT why should i doublt him ?? ?? ?? ?

he had nothing to gain from the story ?? ?? ?? ??

only 26000 window cleaners, i find that a little on the low side, my little town must have 30 that i know of

[Duke]

maybe so...but why do I still hear...'We can't get a window Cleaner round here' ?....perhaps they're all pegging it faster than can be replaced.....ok, not funny...but the statistics might be a tad manipulated.....seems the figure of fatalities is about 11 a year. Don't get me wrong, that's still unacceptable...and if, as to believe, it's mainly ladder related bad decisions....then bring on the pole.

[rosskesava]

Please just give the WFP versus trad thing a rest. Please.

It seems that at every oportunity the same old thing comes up.

Yes, WFP is everything. Message understood.

13 people were killed last year by old grannies and old men in electric cars.

1300 injured.

Ban them too.

[stevekennedy]

A guy in Aberdeen died 2 years ago and I know of several "Retirees" due to falls. The danger when doing domestic is that you will fall off the ladder and injure/kill the customer, their children or their pet. If that happened you're insurance is going to want to know what reasonable measures you took to prevent the accident. Since we now have published guidelines we will need to follow them.

Cases of causing death may also result in imprisonment for corporate manslaughter.

Saying that no-one has been sued yet is not an argument. If we keep exposing our customers to this risk it WILL happen. It's just a matter of time.

Don't get me wrong, I still use a ladder sometimes. But from April 6th onwards I will only climb if I have a suitable stability device fitted. I am checking them out as we speak.

[poleman]

THE BIG QUESTION

Will it be simply no longer acceptable to just lean the ladder against the building and begin working from it?... safety equipment... securing  fixed or tied.

Andy

[rosskesava]

PLEASE PLEASE read and understand WAHD correctly.

IT DOES NOT SAY ANYWHERE THAT LADDERS CANNOT BE USED.

[Duke]

Hurray for ladders !

[martin19842]

hello there,

ok, obviously people that have resourced up with either WFP or cherrypickers etc are going to market themselves as being able to 'DO THE JOB'

that is why they are in business to earn  money,

thats why we are all in business thats why the window cleaners with ladders are in business to earn money.

regarding the legislation, the legislation needs to be read and then interpretated by each individual operator, to carry out your risk assessment, before working at height, irrespective of the task. whether it be window cleaning, painting a house, repairing a gutter, or even putting up a tv aerial.

the first place that HSE will concentrate the efforts is the commercial sector, and especially construction, and if you have any experience of working in the commercial sector already, then you will already know that any company worth their money, have already implemented WAHD.

lets be honest in say 5-10 years time, wfp, or pole access only will be more common to the domestic customer.

WAHD doesnt really affect the cradle and abseilers, cause they are already and have been doing what the HSE is asking for, for a long time. 

it wont be long before 3 and 4 storey houses, have certified eyebolts!!!

and, we all knew that THIS was coming, it isnt as if it has been widespread knowledge for some time now.

so i say concentrate on earning a living, doing it as safely as possible, remember "practicably possible" this is an open area for interpretation and if you ask the HSE a straight question, THEY WILL NOT GIVE YOU A STRAIGHT ANSWER.

everybody have a great easter

regards

martin

[stevekennedy]

it wont be long before 3 and 4 storey houses, have certified eyebolts!!!

Hi Martin,

You are right Martin. The HSE puts too much emphasis on Commercial sector making their rules unworkable for the domestic cleaner.

Like you, I thought the eyebolts would be an excellent solution. However, after checking out the costs of maintaining them (annual testing) it cost more than I was charging to clean the windows. FAR, FAR MORE!

I, like many other pole operators, have some windows that still need a ladder for access to roofs etc. Eyebolts would be excellent. I could go out and buy a pack of ten for £79 with all the fittings. Ten minutes with a cordless drill and they're ready. But, even if the householder agrees to this, the HSE will not allow my employees to use them without certified testing which would cost me £117+ per house per year. Totally unreasonable.

The HSE needs to let contractors install and test eyebolts themselves. After all, some work cannot be done with a pole. Satallite dishes, etc. ANd not all locations allow for cherry picker. Scaffolding is going to add £100's to the costs.

I am therefore left with a dilemma, use a stability device (which is a hassle & much less safe than eyebolts) or bin the ladders (not really viable).

I would like to see the Fed representing us better. Pressuring the HSE for a realistic set of guidelines for domestic work. Perhaps we can arrange to have all the members write a personal letter to the head of the HSE. 1000 envelopes arriving on his desk may make him take notice of our plight.

Be careful out there!

[matt]

but self testing eye bolts WILL NOT work, as that would put the resposiblity on the worker again, who will just want the window cleaned and not bother with the eye bolt

[Stuart Webster]

Cleaner killed in mystery fall

A RETIRED window cleaner who could not give up the job, died when he fell off his ladder on Valentine's Day.

Southwark Coroner's Court heard how Peter Gosney, 69, of Ingram Road, Dartford, liked to keep in touch with some of his old customers by calling round with his window cleaning equipment.

He had been cleaning windows at a house in Ardgowan Road, Lewisham, when a passer-by found him collapsed semi-conscious on the ground.

He never regained consciousness, and died a month later after his family agreed to stop life-saving treatment following blood transfusion complications.

His daughter, Julia Walford, told the court her father had been an extremely fit man and had never been known to fall off a ladder.

Following the accident, Mr Gosney was taken to Lewisham Hospital, and transferred to King's College Hospital to treat his head injuries.

King's College consultant Dr Nadim Naeeme said: “Mr Gosney arrived in a deep coma. As his treatment progressed there had been hopes he might recover from his injuries, but further complications relating to blood transfusions developed and eventually it was agreed further life-saving treatment should be discontinued.”

He died from head injuries and multiple organ failure. The reason for his fall remains a mystery.

Southwark coroner Selena Lynch recorded a verdict of accidental death.





This is the best you can come up with!!

This chap wasnt a professional, he did it to keep in touch with his friends.

I doubt any of us here are 69, we are professional, we know what we are doing, we choose the safest working conditions with regard to our equipment.

Again i ask you to find me a case of a professional window cleaner dying as a result of a fall on domestic work, it will be the commercial sector that will be inspected on, i do not believe the regs apply to residential

The HSE will first of all concentrate on businesses who employ a number of workers. They will be the first ones who will feel the pinch of any new "rules". 

[Roy Harding]

I would say that I view my self as a professional window cleaner. And I think the problem is we do such a repetitive job, that sometimes we are all guilty of a bit of lack of concentration. I remember putting up a ladder to a window once and to get the right angle put the feet under a leafy plant. I got to the top started to clean and the ladder slipped about 2 inches and stopped on the dry path. When I moved the leaves to look it was wet and slimy under it on the path. Accidents do happen and if your at height when it does its going to hurt, my brother in-law has bee in a wheelchair for the last 30rs through a fall.
So every time you go up just double check and do all you can to be safe.

Roy 

[stevekennedy]

but self testing eye bolts WILL NOT work, as that would put the resposiblity on the worker again, who will just want the window cleaned and not bother with the eye bolt

You are right about that. I was meaning that the employer could test them rather than paying a third party to do it.