[martin19842]

hi there,

when i used to quote for window cleaning as part of office contracts we would insist on seeing the eyebolt certification, so many places do have them, but half the time th e occupiers of the building dont know what they are for or when they were tested.

oene about the repetitive nature of the work, is that the HSE have used the repitition argument, and lack of concentration to discourage the use of ladders.

regards

martin

[rosskesava]

Someone wrote earlier that 30000 serious injuries occur to window cleaners every year

still speak with 2 people who were on the same course, a few weeks ago i told him about my WFP window cleaning company and mentioned the WaH directive and he smirked and said its a cracking idea to tighten the issues up, and i mentioned that i mainly do domestic cleaning,

he told me the year before last the HSE says 13 window cleaners died and just under 30000 (yes 30 THOUSAND) had a serious accident

Odd that and maybe a symptom of knowing someone in the know who knows these things and this seems to be a problem - not knowing exactly where the info comes from.

The HSE state between 2 and 7 die each year and 20 to 30 suffer major injuries. The problem is that there are no accurate figures for lesser injuries for obvious reasons.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf#search='HSEwindow%20cleaning'

Another interesting fact sheet:-

http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/overall/fatl0203.pdf

and .....

http://www.totalaccess.co.uk/~sa_webapp/run.asp?page=772

http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2003/c03068.htm

I still don't like ladders though.

[NBwcs]

According to the Feds site, the HSE were going to test out all ladder stability devices hence giving a definitive yes or no to avaivable equipment. As we're only two weeks away from implementation, does anyone know if the results are available. Every one seems to equate stability devices to mean "the stopper" but what about disc feet, articulated feet, splayed ladders, etc
                                          Cheers Nick   

[stevekennedy]

It's right here. Click on the PDFs for details of the reports.

www.dti.gov.uk/homesafetynetwork/dy_rldr.htm


Only trouble is, they don't name the devices tested. You can figure it out though from the photos in the third PDF.

The top stabiliser is not named and I don't recognise it from it's picture. I'll try to upload it...

[Stuart Webster]

Maybe cherry pickers ore the future.

Just seen this on Autotrader

CLICK HERE

[Ian_Giles]

Ross,

Top set of links that, puts it in perspective doesn't it?
Not that I have any intentions of using a ladder if I can possibly help it though.

I might even....no, I WILL, copy and print most of that first document, well ok
I'll probably print out the whole thing Much easier reading too than the big
one.
But Ross; Don't get yourself too worked up by the headless chicken brigade!!!

I don't include myself in that group, my own personal viewpoint is that domestic window cleaners
will probably only really be affected in the event of an insurance claim.
Those working in the commercial sector will have to pay closer
and closer attention to health and safety, and as time passes that
will filter to domestic users.
I bet there will be some interesting newspaper headlines though

I do enjoy the wildly differing views that are generated in this debate


Ian

[NBwcs]

Thanks for that Steve, wading my way through it now. Cheers Nick

[rosskesava]

Hi Stuart

Deaths due to falling from cherry pickers are higher than deaths from w/c's falling.

Seriously.

I'll find the info and post it.

[Stuart Webster]

Oh dear,

guess i'll just go and sign on then

[Simon Carter]

What will be the significance of the legislation to the customer ( domestic) if he or she continues to use a window cleaner with a ladder if a local company is available & has invested in WFP kit?. Could they be held responsible if an accident occured?. Surely if they were, this is what would do for the window cleaner with his ladder. It is the availability of a viable alternative which seems to be the issue & what or who is responsible if that alternative is not utilized.
I know it's not nice, but as an invester in WFP kit, I would promote this factor if it saw off my ladder using competition. Business is business. After all, the kit is available to all. If they choose not to invest, that is their choice. It is this aspect, I believe that will improve the image & the professionalism of window cleaning as a bucket from under the sink & a B&Q ladder will no longer be an option for those wishing to suplement their dole money & their incapacity benifit.

[rosskesava]

Negligence has to be proved before anyone can be held responsible.

To prove negligence you would first have to prove it was a known risk where in there had been accidents in the past and that no steps had been taken to reduce the risk.

i.e. previous accidents involving similar equipment, similar circumstances and so on.

With regards a householder, they would not be expected to understand any implications regarding someone cleaning their windows. The understanding is the sole responsibility of the w/c as he is a w/c as w/c is his domain and job.

The w/c having had no real history of serious accidents cleaning windows (if he had - he would not be cleaning windows because he would have either stopped, or been too injured continue as a trade) would carry on.

Hence the reason why there is a problem with the HSE and self employed w/c's.

[mark f]

i dont agree with simons post im affraid! I think a wfp user in a domestic setting is more likely to lose work to a conventional cleaner than the other way round regs or no regs!! Im getting kitted out with wfp but under no illusion that it will be easy to persuade the customers.

 

[rosskesava]

Hi Mark

I totally agree with you. Last week we picked up a job from a private property where the w/c had just gone over to poles.

The windows had been done 2 days before with WFP's and the owner wanted us to come round and do them again with traditional methods which we did.

The windows were actually spotless and it seemed pointless to us to be doing them again but that was what the customer wanted.

I think that over time WFP's will become more and more accepted and it's just right now that some customers need to see a ladder, cloths and so on.

I don't know about the rest of the country but around here (Brighton, East Sussex), WFP's are still very unusual.

I do think that bit by bit the new regs will take hold over the coming years simply because the EU is determined that they will and then WFP's will be the normal. Also, I think bit by bit too, more and more w/c's will be going over to WFP's anyway.

I think at some point the HSE or someone will bring a high profile case against something involving ladders, whether w/c or painters or something that will start the change big time.

[gaza]

Can someone write out in plain English what the new laws will be exactly,Ive read so much on this subject my head is spinning,Ive read stuff from trade mags,read all sorts of bumph from HSE AND ALSO FROM THIS FORUM.how about the fed writing something we all will be able to understand,it may convince me to finally sign the dotted line on the cheque Ive written out for membership,after meeting THE FED rep at NEC inMarch. I invested money in a pole system 3 years ago so Im not to bothered,but some jobs its impossible for me to get around the back off.hedges over grown,to far around the back to run hoses eg large gardens in mid terraced council houses.my question is would HSEleave a many thousands of pounds system + a van unlocked in his local area
which is quite rough.Ithink if I was stopped by HSE  heres the equipment show me how you want it done and i will do it that way,I havent had a complaint since about Nov,that was a bird had done a whopsy just after I had cleaned it
bet my customers are going to love me dragging hoses through their kitchens
that have just been draged through there lawn and garden,the only way I can gain access to the backs of some houses.
  I think tommorrow I will become a member of the EEC Parliment (which I know nothing about) cus Im sure Iwould make a better Parlimentarenian than they would a window cleaner.

[rosskesava]

The bottom line as far as I can tell.

Stuff the WAHD.

It is all so muddled that I doubt in truth if in the coming years that it'll make any difference.

Carry on as you are. I will.

Cheers