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boshravie

How to rent out your Round.
« on: February 01, 2009, 09:24:48 am »

Hi guys just like to ask some of you who are very experience in this field.
How do you rent out your round?
What kind of things are involved in this?

Your anticipation would be much appreciated.

Regards,
Bosh



Paul Coleman

Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2009, 10:17:14 am »

Hi guys just like to ask some of you who are very experience in this field.
How do you rent out your round?
What kind of things are involved in this?

Your anticipation would be much appreciated.

Regards,
Bosh




I've never rented any of my work out to anyone else but I have rented work from someone before.
The deal was that I took 60% and supplied the water and vehicle etc.   Any cheques taken were made out to the main contractor and posted to them periodically.  Any cash taken was retained by me and deducted from the final invoice amount.  The invoice amount was 60% of the gross price.  Any new cleans picked up were 100% on first clean and 60% thereafter.  Usually better just to do the first clean outside of the regular arrangement as it messes up the calculations a bit when you are using software.
Going by my own experiences with this, there are several things that would need to be discussed and agreed upon before embarking on this.
1)  Should the subcontractor have to wait to be paid until the main contractor is paid?
2)  If a customer doesn't pay at all, should the contractor still pay the subcontractor?
3)  If the subcontractor isn't to be paid in the event of a customer default, how much say should the subcontractor have over working for a particular customer?
4)  What should happen in the case of alleged bad work?
5)  How much notice should be given by either party in the event of the business relationship being terminated?

Obviously there needs to be a fair bit of trust in such a business relationship.  The above are issues that I encountered when doing this and need to be discussed and agreed upon first.  They were issues that didn't occur to me so no agreement was reached.

RE: (1) I had to wait until a customer paid until I got paid.  There was no prior discussion about this.  This made the payment calculations unnecessarilly complex IMO.  In hindsight, if the contractor wished to temporarily retain money in case of problems, I feel that it would have been better to withhold a fixed amount - to be repaid at the end.  This would have made the payment calculations much simpler.

RE: (2)  I had the bad debts passed onto me.  One customer even lied that they had told me to cancel the service so I wasn't paid for two cleans on that job.   Fortunately, the amounts involved weren't too high.

RE: (3)  I had a very bad feeling about the customer who lied from the start.  Had it been my own job, the first clean I did would have been the last.  You can get a nose for this sort of thing when you've been W/Cing for a while (though it's possible to bew wrong of course).  Of course, you can't cancel someone else's customer if you get a bad gut feeling about them.  Not such a problem if bad debts aren't passed on but a potential issue if they are.

RE: (4)  There was one allegation of bad work on my part that I was made aware of and the customer deduted some money (deduction passed onto me).  Not entirely my fault.  I phoned in advance for gate to be left unlocked.  Conservatory roof was to be done every time.  Customer left large vents open on roof so I was unable to do all of it due to potential leakage.  Customer was out so I couldn't ask for them to be closed.  The cost of the entire conservatory roof was withheld.

RE: (5)  This arrangement went on for about 8 months.  I had made up my mind to get more work of my own and end the arrangement - probably this coming Spring as, although it had its uses for me, there's no substitute for having your own work and having more control over your own destiny.  Had I terminated the arrangement, I certainly would have given a minimum of a full month's notice.  As things turned out, the contractor took on an employe on the PAYE and I was given no notice to end the arrangement.  Obviously there are no legal obligations when self-employment is involved but morally, I felt obliged to give the contractor time to take someone on and give them some basic training.  Likewise, I feel that it wouyld have been better to give me some opportunity to replace some of the lost income.  What made it worse for me was that I had been doing a little PAYE cleaning job for 2 hours per morning.  I had just left that at the time.  If I had been given more warning from the contractor, I would have kept that job longer.  It left me with a financial black hole from which I'm just recovering.

It's probably better to lay out some basic T & Cs before commencing.  I've no issue with the contractor over the above matters.  Although I feel that some matters could have been handled better, I realise that none of the above happened with malice aforethought.  Perhaps we should both have thought it through better, had more discussion about potential pitfalls, and cobbled together some basic ground rules.

Hopefully the above has given you some pointers.


boshravie

Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2009, 10:36:06 am »
Hi Shiner
Well many thanks for your lengthy explanation,  and it’s a great help and eye opener. By the way you have explained, it seems so much headache.
I think yes, you are right that you need to have all these in writing at the beginning of the contract to the contractor, but may be is better to rent the jobs that are commercials, this way they just go and clean without worrying about the customer has paid them or not, and at the end of the month they get paid for their job?

What’s your thought on this? 

Regard Bosh


Paul Coleman

Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2009, 10:51:46 am »
Hi Shiner
Well many thanks for your lengthy explanation,  and it’s a great help and eye opener. By the way you have explained, it seems so much headache.
I think yes, you are right that you need to have all these in writing at the beginning of the contract to the contractor, but may be is better to rent the jobs that are commercials, this way they just go and clean without worrying about the customer has paid them or not, and at the end of the month they get paid for their job?

What’s your thought on this? 

Regard Bosh



I've never done commercial work on this basis except for the odd shop.  Renting needn't be a headache so long as it's thought through at the start and details are agreed to.
With larger commercial jobs, the rates often need to be kept down a bit in order to secure the work.  None of this £1+ per window on those jobs.  Consequently, the margin for taking on a subcontractor may need to be smaller too.
I'm not sure that there are many specific rights and wrongs in these arrangements so long as everyone knows the score at the start.

boshravie

Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2009, 12:56:29 pm »
Hi shiner

Well many thanks for your feedback, it’s been a great help to me  :)
I am just wondering if any one else have different experience?

Many thank
Bosh


M Henderson

Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2009, 02:32:03 pm »
How about this?

If you are renting out a domestic round but also have a couple of big monthly commercial jobs you could have the commercial jobs done as your commission and you then get your money by invoicing the commercial jobs direct.

That way you are not relying on the person to pay you out of the round earnings but with his time.

Lets say for every £600 of work you rent out, the guy does one day of commercial jobs per month for you. (Say a couple of big hotels or something)

So in practice, say you have a round of £1200 that you want to rent out at 20%.
You would invoice the person renting for a commission of say £240 per month.

So you give the guy 2 days of commercial work to do per month and he invoices you £240 or whatever for those two days he does the work for you. If the jobs are done each month you owe each other the same amount.

If in those 2 days the commercial jobs are worth £250 per day then you actually earn £500.



It's definitely a good idea to rent to someone you trust and write up an agreement describing what happens if new customers are added etc.

eg.

........ can request to see updated records of the work loaned at any time.

........ can reclaim the work loaned with one month notice.

............ must give one-month notice if he wishes to terminate the arrangement. The work would then be returned to ...............

................can canvass for more work in the vicinity of the work provided, although this work will become part of the round belonging to.........

.............. can increase (or decrease) prices as he sees fit.

If the total value of the work upon return is more than the value of the work when loaned, then the extra work will be bought from .................... at the rate of one clean. It is at the discretion of ............ as to which work he wants to buy.

If the total value of work upon return is less than the value of the work when loaned, then the lost work will be paid to ............ at the rate of one clean.





boshravie

Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2009, 03:20:23 pm »
Hi henerson

Yes another very good idea, its very interesting, have you actually put this to practice? And is it working for you?

Regards,
Bosh


M Henderson

Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2009, 04:21:42 pm »
When I moved I thought I would rent out my exisiting round like this while I built up another one in the new area. It worked well, so even when I had built up my new round I just kept the arrangement in place.

The key is to treat the lads renting fairly and keep them happy. For their employment status they should have the complete freedom to be doing the domestic round as if it were their own, collecting the money, running it through their own books. They are only subcontractors when they do the commercial work because they have mostly their own work and are only invoicing you for the commercial work.

The risk is that from the customers point of view they don't know that you are the actual proprietor of the goodwill. This is why you need a documented agreement and trust that the person renting isn't just going to say, "ta very much for the round on a plate.... see ya"

If you look after them though, they won't do this. I helped them build and expand the work,  buying and canvassing rounds to give them to work on this basis and most people would reason that you don't bite off the hand that feeds you.
They were happy because I took the risk in buying the work and they didn't have to fork out the money.
I was happy because I had good commercial work and it didn't take long to pay off the work I bought.

Lads come and go and if I didn't have a suitable replacement I sold the work off. I did this for about 8 years and I even thought of creating a kind of franchise set up doing it on a larger scale but decided I didn't want the hassle and complication. After all, I started window cleaning to have a simple life!!

Overall it was a good system but its not without its risks. I learned a few lessons and suffered losses along the way.






dai

  • Posts: 3503
Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2009, 04:37:47 pm »
Some excellent posts there guys, it's nice to see the forum at it's best.

boshravie

Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2009, 05:05:59 pm »
hi henerson

Again many thanks for your in debt detail.
I can see which ever you look at it is a lot of  hassle, and I think you have to be large enough business to do this, I have been thinking about renting some of my rounds  for some times, and now  after I am reading your view on this matter  have come to conclusion that may be the best thing is when ever you have made a large enough round just sell  off some of it  and to do with it.

Am I to believe I am right?

Regards,
Bosh


boshravie

Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2009, 05:10:54 pm »
Uuuuuhhhhhhh by the way thanks dai. for your kind comments. :)

Regards,
Bosh


Paul Coleman

Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2009, 05:16:00 pm »
hi henerson

Again many thanks for your in debt detail.
I can see which ever you look at it is a lot of  hassle, and I think you have to be large enough business to do this, I have been thinking about renting some of my rounds  for some times, and now  after I am reading your view on this matter  have come to conclusion that may be the best thing is when ever you have made a large enough round just sell  off some of it  and to do with it.

Am I to believe I am right?

Regards,
Bosh



To me it looks like it depends on what you want.  If you're after ongoing income for doing some paperwork and some customer relations stuff and don't mind a certain amount of hassle then rentingf out is )OK.  If you want a simpler life, pocket a lump sum but with no ongoing profits,  then sell.
Only you know what you would prefer.
I tend to take the route of less hassle and earning less because I'm not so good at personal stress management.  Some people thrive on stress though.

boshravie

Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2009, 05:27:15 pm »
Hi shiner

Well you are right about the challenge part of it, to tell you truth before this business I had a restaurant and I can tell you I have experienced plenty of challenges, but as you get older, you just want easy life.

So I presume I will go with easy root.

Many thanks for all your replies gentlemen, is great to be part of this forum and hear very good advice .

Regard
Bosh


Paul Coleman

Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2009, 05:32:36 pm »
Hi shiner

Well you are right about the challenge part of it, to tell you truth before this business I had a restaurant and I can tell you I have experienced plenty of challenges, but as you get older, you just want easy life.

So I presume I will go with easy root.

Many thanks for all your replies gentlemen, is great to be part of this forum and hear very good advice .

Regard
Bosh



<tongue-in-cheek>Well now that I've helped you decide to sell part of your round, how much you want for it?  :)  </tongue-in-cheek>
Don't know where you're based but I see you're in East Sussex and I'm in West Sussex.

M Henderson

Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2009, 05:52:20 pm »
Not to disuade you from selling it but a plus for keeping it and renting it at the minute is the current economic climate.

Having extra work on standby might not be a bad idea as times get tougher.

boshravie

Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2009, 06:58:07 pm »
hi shiner.

Well nice of you to help me with your information, but as Henderson say, I am not planning to sell any of my rounds as yet, due to the current economic climate, you never know as things are going I might loose some of them.
Uuuhhh I am From Hove Actually (BN3) as they call it the posh part.  ;) :)

Many thanks for your interest any way.

Regards,
Bosh


Paul Coleman

Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2009, 07:04:35 pm »
hi shiner.

Well nice of you to help me with your information, but as Henderson say, I am not planning to sell any of my rounds as yet, due to the current economic climate, you never know as things are going I might loose some of them.
Uuuhhh I am From Hove Actually (BN3) as they call it the posh part.  ;) :)

Many thanks for your interest any way.

Regards,
Bosh



It was very tongue in cheek anyway and I do intend to door knock some more to get my business a bit bigger.  However, for the right price in an accessible location I would consider buying work.  I do currently do a bit of work on a subcontract basis (not the work I mentioned earlier in the thread) and it seems to be working out OK.

boshravie

Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2009, 07:26:50 pm »
Well it all depends on the price really, I am sure you are earning good out of those sub contracting jobs.
Good for you and I whish you all the success in future.


Regard

Bosh


markybop

  • Posts: 269
Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2009, 12:56:20 am »
I just rent out my domestic houses only and ask for 25% of what the round is worth every month. I think that's pretty fair and it works fine for me.........
splish-splash....give me the cash!

Paul Coleman

Re: How to rent out your Round.
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2009, 09:47:58 am »
Some excellent posts there guys, it's nice to see the forum at it's best.

Well spotted Dai.  This is the sort of thing that this forum lacks at times.  Just honest matter of fact stuff about personal experiences and potential pitfalls to avoid.  I prefer the forum this way too.