[David Slater]

The one thing that totally put me off is that they forced Gardiner's poles to take off the info of their poles from their site.

Straight away this got my back up. If their poles are that good then surely they would be happy to have their poles compared to others.

If that is true than Ionics are way out of order, talk about wanting to be greedy in this world.

In my honest opnion Craig is a very good sales man but sometimes he goes way over the top. As a lot of you know a certain new window cleaning association was being formed then he goes and patient their name. That really showed his true colours but this Gardiners thing has gone way too far.

When I first saw the Ionics logo I was not impressed with it at all as they would do nothing in attracting customers for me. Ionics are well known for their pricy systems. So for me their logo stands for  "NICK ME"

I apologise to those who have had it done but it stands out a mile for the crook who knows it is an expensive system.

When their was a comparison made in the BWCA mag, carbon modular poles were specifically excluded from the testing.  Can't recall the reason given.  However, they are perfectly entitled not to have their products put on test by another manufacturer.  I trust Alex G and believe he would have given a totally fair test.

On what grounds can they refuse to have their equipment tested by another manufacturer?

Are you suggesting BWCA has no links with Inoics???

It strikes me the market leader has something to hide over how it justifies it prices 

Methinks the lady doth protest too much 

[Paul Coleman]

The one thing that totally put me off is that they forced Gardiner's poles to take off the info of their poles from their site.

Straight away this got my back up. If their poles are that good then surely they would be happy to have their poles compared to others.

If that is true than Ionics are way out of order, talk about wanting to be greedy in this world.

In my honest opnion Craig is a very good sales man but sometimes he goes way over the top. As a lot of you know a certain new window cleaning association was being formed then he goes and patient their name. That really showed his true colours but this Gardiners thing has gone way too far.

When I first saw the Ionics logo I was not impressed with it at all as they would do nothing in attracting customers for me. Ionics are well known for their pricy systems. So for me their logo stands for  "NICK ME"

I apologise to those who have had it done but it stands out a mile for the crook who knows it is an expensive system.

When their was a comparison made in the BWCA mag, carbon modular poles were specifically excluded from the testing.  Can't recall the reason given.  However, they are perfectly entitled not to have their products put on test by another manufacturer.  I trust Alex G and believe he would have given a totally fair test.

On what grounds can they refuse to have their equipment tested by another manufacturer?

Are you suggesting BWCA has no links with Inoics???

It strikes me the market leader has something to hide over how it justifies it prices 

Methinks the lady doth protest too much 

Maybe I should have said not put to the test by another manufacturer AND have those results published.  I'm not referring to law.  I'm referring to moral grounds.

I don't know how you deduced from my post that you think I was saying that BWCA and Ionics have no links.

I've never had a problem with Ionics myself but I would agree that their equipment is pricey.  They manage to achieve that by marketing it well.  Isn't that what a lot of us W/Cs try to do - obtain the highest price we can manage by selling ourselves and our cleaning methods to our (potential) customers?  There's nothing new in what Ionics do.  It's just that those of us who've been around the block a bit know the score.

[drwindows]

I use an ionics system, and i have the logo. I like it and yes i think it has helped me get work, especially commercial. If you dont have one then you shouldnt really use their logo should you! Sorry but it seems rather obvious to me.

[David Slater]

The one thing that totally put me off is that they forced Gardiner's poles to take off the info of their poles from their site.

Straight away this got my back up. If their poles are that good then surely they would be happy to have their poles compared to others.

If that is true than Ionics are way out of order, talk about wanting to be greedy in this world.

In my honest opnion Craig is a very good sales man but sometimes he goes way over the top. As a lot of you know a certain new window cleaning association was being formed then he goes and patient their name. That really showed his true colours but this Gardiners thing has gone way too far.

When I first saw the Ionics logo I was not impressed with it at all as they would do nothing in attracting customers for me. Ionics are well known for their pricy systems. So for me their logo stands for  "NICK ME"

I apologise to those who have had it done but it stands out a mile for the crook who knows it is an expensive system.

When their was a comparison made in the BWCA mag, carbon modular poles were specifically excluded from the testing.  Can't recall the reason given.  However, they are perfectly entitled not to have their products put on test by another manufacturer.  I trust Alex G and believe he would have given a totally fair test.

On what grounds can they refuse to have their equipment tested by another manufacturer?

Are you suggesting BWCA has no links with Inoics???

It strikes me the market leader has something to hide over how it justifies it prices 

Methinks the lady doth protest too much 

Maybe I should have said not put to the test by another manufacturer AND have those results published.  I'm not referring to law.  I'm referring to moral grounds.

I don't know how you deduced from my post that you think I was saying that BWCA and Ionics have no links.

I've never had a problem with Ionics myself but I would agree that their equipment is pricey.  They manage to achieve that by marketing it well.  Isn't that what a lot of us W/Cs try to do - obtain the highest price we can manage by selling ourselves and our cleaning methods to our (potential) customers?  There's nothing new in what Ionics do.  It's just that those of us who've been around the block a bit know the score.

Shiner,

I think we all suspect that Inoics and BWCA have a commercial and/or financial link to each other (who are the directors/founders/paid advisors/consultants for each body)...

What I suggest is Ionics hides behind BWCA as an "independent organisation" to provide supposedly impartial tests of other manufacturers equipment.....and surprise! surprise! Inocs always comes out as the winner.

Isnt that strange?

Lets presume you havent been 'around the block' (presuming Inocs market share comes from new entrants) .....would you then agree that Inocs may be skewing "independent tests" in their favour by using the 'independent body' namely BWCA?

Should Trading Standards be informed of this situation?

Big Boys who throw their weight around must surely realise that somebody, somewhere is going to challenge them some day 

Maybe the same person who kicked up all this fuss over their logos will also have a word with Trading Standards over the relationship of Inocs/BWCA and whether that relationship is really 'independent'?

...or maybe somebody else will have to have a word   

[DASERVICES]

Dave,

This will answer your questions:- www.cleanitup.co.uk/forum/8324588701.html

What a blast from the past
Ionics / Craig used Cleanitup as a launch to promote his company like many others have done in the past.

Interesting old comment " Letters will be sent to other leading manufacturers in the near future asking for sponsorship support, in the event that they accept you can expect to see their products used during the appropriate practical elements of the training. "

Alex have you had yours for the Superlite

Joking aside Craig has window cleaning at heart but needs to work with the industry and not try and fight other suppliers and window cleaners. We are all struggling to make a living so could do without petty hurdles.

[Paul Coleman]

The one thing that totally put me off is that they forced Gardiner's poles to take off the info of their poles from their site.

Straight away this got my back up. If their poles are that good then surely they would be happy to have their poles compared to others.

If that is true than Ionics are way out of order, talk about wanting to be greedy in this world.

In my honest opnion Craig is a very good sales man but sometimes he goes way over the top. As a lot of you know a certain new window cleaning association was being formed then he goes and patient their name. That really showed his true colours but this Gardiners thing has gone way too far.

When I first saw the Ionics logo I was not impressed with it at all as they would do nothing in attracting customers for me. Ionics are well known for their pricy systems. So for me their logo stands for  "NICK ME"

I apologise to those who have had it done but it stands out a mile for the crook who knows it is an expensive system.

When their was a comparison made in the BWCA mag, carbon modular poles were specifically excluded from the testing.  Can't recall the reason given.  However, they are perfectly entitled not to have their products put on test by another manufacturer.  I trust Alex G and believe he would have given a totally fair test.

On what grounds can they refuse to have their equipment tested by another manufacturer?

Are you suggesting BWCA has no links with Inoics???

It strikes me the market leader has something to hide over how it justifies it prices 

Methinks the lady doth protest too much 

Maybe I should have said not put to the test by another manufacturer AND have those results published.  I'm not referring to law.  I'm referring to moral grounds.

I don't know how you deduced from my post that you think I was saying that BWCA and Ionics have no links.

I've never had a problem with Ionics myself but I would agree that their equipment is pricey.  They manage to achieve that by marketing it well.  Isn't that what a lot of us W/Cs try to do - obtain the highest price we can manage by selling ourselves and our cleaning methods to our (potential) customers?  There's nothing new in what Ionics do.  It's just that those of us who've been around the block a bit know the score.

Shiner,

I think we all suspect that Inoics and BWCA have a commercial and/or financial link to each other (who are the directors/founders/paid advisors/consultants for each body)...

What I suggest is Ionics hides behind BWCA as an "independent organisation" to provide supposedly impartial tests of other manufacturers equipment.....and surprise! surprise! Inocs always comes out as the winner.

Isnt that strange?

Lets presume you havent been 'around the block' (presuming Inocs market share comes from new entrants) .....would you then agree that Inocs may be skewing "independent tests" in their favour by using the 'independent body' namely BWCA?

Should Trading Standards be informed of this situation?

Big Boys who throw their weight around must surely realise that somebody, somewhere is going to challenge them some day 

Maybe the same person who kicked up all this fuss over their logos will also have a word with Trading Standards over the relationship of Inocs/BWCA and whether that relationship is really 'independent'?

...or maybe somebody else will have to have a word   

Totally agree with you about BWCA masquerading as an independent.  I've said the same myself before.
I hadn't thought about the Trading Standards side of things but you may have a point there.
I think Ionics would be better advised to simply advertise their equipment as being a quality poduct without a pretend independent entering the equation.
When I wrote about taking a leaf out of the Ionics' marketing book, I wasn't referring to subterfuge.  IMO they are good enough marketers not to need to resort to such tactics.

[Ambient Services]

When their was a comparison made in the BWCA mag, carbon modular poles were specifically excluded from the testing.  Can't recall the reason given. 

No they weren't.

[matt]

its common knowledge that Ironics and BWCA are 1 in the same, they dont even hide the fact, its the same as that mag they send out, they dont hide that fact that its just ironics, they are not independent in the slightest

they did the test with the poles, found out that certain poles were better, so just excluding them from the results, lets face it, it was plain to see what happened

the danger is that craig does become and spokesperson for the industry, BUT only feathers his nest by looking after ironics customers

[matt]

Dave,

This will answer your questions:- www.cleanitup.co.uk/forum/8324588701.html

What a blast from the past
Ionics / Craig used Cleanitup as a launch to promote his company like many others have done in the past.

Interesting old comment " Letters will be sent to other leading manufacturers in the near future asking for sponsorship support, in the event that they accept you can expect to see their products used during the appropriate practical elements of the training. "

Alex have you had yours for the Superlite

Joking aside Craig has window cleaning at heart but needs to work with the industry and not try and fight other suppliers and window cleaners. We are all struggling to make a living so could do without petty hurdles.

what a funny link, thanks doug

notice the post by Philip Hanson

Posted by Silly_Philly (Philip Hanson), 11 March 2004
Quote:
Ionic systems does not own the BWCA, the BWCA is a separate legal entity. In line with its commitment to the Window Cleaning industry Ionic systems sponsors the BWCA by providing facilities within its premises


But, doesnt it have the same directors, and the same registered office?  I would bet the shareholders are the same as well.  So, although legally Ionic do not own it, substantially they do, do they not?

I think its misleading to say that Ionic "sponsor" the BWCA as it quite clearly is an Ionic creation.  Not of course that would make it any the worse, as Ionic is an industry leader.  But please, lets not pretend that Ionic, out of the kindness of their hearts (or because they are so committed to helping us poor window cleaners) have given support to an academic institution whose only function is education.  If that were true, the BWCA would be a non-profit making organization, run by a trust for example, not a private limited company.

I am not for a moment pulling down the BWCA, I'm sure the training is of an excellent standard.  Actually I am considering attending some of the courses myself.  But lets be honest and open about how it came to be, and its relationship with Ionic.

Philip


  that must have been before her went over to the darkside and took them pieces of gold from craig ( a bag full of gold for your soul  ), sorry Philip 

[Alex Gardiner]

When their was a comparison made in the BWCA mag, carbon modular poles were specifically excluded from the testing.  Can't recall the reason given. 

No they weren't.

Some carbon modular poles were excluded (such as the Super-LiteŽ2 which had recently been introduced) - The paragraph in the Autumn 2007 Issue 10 PWC Magazine said that "We did not test (these) poles....... as they are simply not robust enough for the job of window cleaning, regardless of what some suppliers claim."

The Unger CarbonTec pole was included in the test, but window cleaners that liked such modular poles were dismissed as "fanboys".

[Mr H]

Dave,

This will answer your questions:- www.cleanitup.co.uk/forum/8324588701.html

The thing that got me about that thread was him saying you wouldn't be able to get insurance without one of these NVQs from the BWCA...... My insurance company has NEVER asked me if I have any formal training or qualifications.....
Sounds like he's good material for a top job with the Fed if he is talking such rubbish.

Regards
Mr H

[Paul Coleman]

When their was a comparison made in the BWCA mag, carbon modular poles were specifically excluded from the testing.  Can't recall the reason given. 

No they weren't.

Some carbon modular poles were excluded (such as the Super-LiteŽ2 which had recently been introduced) - The paragraph in the Autumn 2007 Issue 10 PWC Magazine said that "We did not test (these) poles....... as they are simply not robust enough for the job of window cleaning, regardless of what some suppliers claim."

The Unger CarbonTec pole was included in the test, but window cleaners that liked such modular poles were dismissed as "fanboys".

OK Alex.  I wasn't  correct then as the Unger pole was included.  I do recall that there was some type of exclusion but not the exact wording.  Thanks for clarifying.  I was just checking through the back issues and typically, probably the only one that is missing is the one with the pole test in it.  Such is life.

[matt]

When their was a comparison made in the BWCA mag, carbon modular poles were specifically excluded from the testing.  Can't recall the reason given. 

No they weren't.

Some carbon modular poles were excluded (such as the Super-LiteŽ2 which had recently been introduced) - The paragraph in the Autumn 2007 Issue 10 PWC Magazine said that "We did not test (these) poles....... as they are simply not robust enough for the job of window cleaning, regardless of what some suppliers claim."

The Unger CarbonTec pole was included in the test, but window cleaners that liked such modular poles were dismissed as "fanboys".

OK Alex.  I wasn't  correct then as the Unger pole was included.  I do recall that there was some type of exclusion but not the exact wording.  Thanks for clarifying.  I was just checking through the back issues and typically, probably the only one that is missing is the one with the pole test in it.  Such is life.

what you keep them 

you will be on ironics christmas list next year

[David Slater]

I use an ionics system, and i have the logo. I like it and yes i think it has helped me get work, especially commercial. If you dont have one then you shouldnt really use their logo should you! Sorry but it seems rather obvious to me.

Just out of curiosity, how did it help you get work?

Was it that the customer knew of the Ionics systems? - why did he think water pumped through an Incos system was superior to any other RO/DI system?

Was it the signwriting on the van? - As mentioned, they do have nice artwork and we should respect their copyright/trademarks. Is the artwork really worth that much?

I honestly dont see how using an Alex Gardiner, Brodex, Unger, Pure Freedom, DIY or indeed an Inoincs piece of kit will win (or lose!) you work. Surely its your quality, price, reputation, standards, professional image etc etc that will win work?

[DASERVICES]

Well said , you are the salesman. The customer does not care what you have in the back of the van

[mark dew]

These ionics threads always make me laugh.
Good ponts raised but every negative angle gets raised. They always end up a bashing thread.
There's always gonna be inconsistencies in business practice.
I'm sure they would love to be able to cleanse the country of any non ionic user with their logo, or using the phrase "reach and wash." But they have to find out 1st and then they have to pay to get legal about it.
Sending a letter to the little man is much cheaper than going after someone who might take them on.
I also can't see a problem with them being perceived to be major representatives of the window cleaning industry. They haven't elbowed people out of the way to become major players, they have created everything ionics related.
They have targeted the top end customer and i'm sure spend heavily to do this. What they are doing overall really should be applauded. They have to protect their brand now they have spent heavily to create one.
I think an email is pretty sociable after reading MJH's post.

Anyway, it is easy to call them out on this forum because anyone who has been here a while, will know that they stopped trying to defend themselves years ago.
Pity really, because doug and a couple of others have raised points that i would be curious to know the answer to.

[Clive McDonald]

If i had an ionics system and had paid not only for the kit but the branding i wouldn't be too keen if i saw someone in barreled up mondeo with wash and reach written on it.

The people who have systems report misusers, and the company sends out letters.Simple.

Doug has good points about licenses, but is not the best of examples himself to be advising govt.

[groundhog]

wash and reach

Well done discount! you have just invented a great new slogan!!! I'm going to get that written on the side of my van right away!!! Thanks! 

[Mr H]

My system DOESN'T reach and wash because I use it many times every day...
My system it reaches and washes..... 

I still wouldn't have it on my van though..... I charge people if they want to advertise on my van ust like they would want to charge me......

Regards
Mr H

[williamx]

I have got one of their brush heads, can I use their logo now.?