[ftp]

How many windowcleaners have been pulled up by a health and safety issue? Does it ever happen? I know health and safety officers visit building sites and factories but have they ever inspected windowcleaners/painters and decorators or small jobbing builders?

[Chris Galloway]

I  doubt it happens much, its more of a case if anything happens and you end up in court proving your H&S policy and procedures were in place to minimise risks.

[George P]

if its an accident that needs to be reported i.e riddor etc then they will call and see you,

[ftp]

I meant general working practices - are they known to spot check?

[Chris Galloway]

I meant general working practices - are they known to spot check?

HSE, generally no. They only check the big industries on a regular occasion. Unless something happens.

But, in spain however all business are visited by their respective HSE.

[DASERVICES]

There have been 3 window cleaners to date who have been issued with notices from the HSE. You can view them on the HSE website but out of respect will not post it as one person is on CIU. But lets face it they will not enforce it as the powers to be probably have put pressure on them not to.

The ladder Industry would loose millions if it was enforced so hence probably the reason why it is hush, hush.

[David Slater]

Health and Safety in the UK is not run on a prescriptive enforcement basis.

The HSE issue Regulations, ACOP's, guidance and advice to help industry. It is down to indusrty to set their own Health and Safety requirements after careful consideration of the operations being performed and risk assessments of the operations.

So basically, nothing is illegal/unlawful as long as you can show you were following industry benchmarks, good practice, ACOP's and your actions were not breaching any Regulations.

A good case in point would be ladders - they are not "banned" "outlawed" or "illegal"...but they do pose significant hazards.

It is more likely the company employing your services would monitor your activities and ask you to cease work if they had issues rather than the HSE spotting you.

FTP,

Just out of curiosity, why would you be concerened if a HSE inspector (or more likely, a LEHO local enviromental officer) saw you working?
Do you think you might be doing something wrong?
 

[ftp]

No not at all. The reason i asked was that when i turn up with my wfp system and my gutter vacuuming system with it's own generator, many of my customers can't understand why i'm using this expensive kit. I then have to reply that it's all to do with health and safety these days. (the fact is i use it for my own health and safety). They sometimes shake their heads and mutter "bloody health and safety what's the world coming to?" In some ways i have to agree with them - what's the point of it all when there seems to be nobody who actually checks traders practices untill it's too late and an accident has happened. People still use unfooted ladders some at three storeys in my area, i don't wear a hard hat whilst vacuuming, my brother-in-law is a builder and never wears a hat/safety boots/goggles/masks or anything, he does plumming, roofing, building, electrics, everything and has no qualifications as such.
I know he'll get hammered if he has an accident but untill then nobody is going to stop him.

[Chris Galloway]

We live in a free country, a democracy.

Its is therefore your duty to follow the rules laid out for one and all.

However..

No one will stop you from murdering someone, but you know its illegal and wrong and people do it anyway - then you have to deal with the consequences and face the full extent of the law "if" you are caught.

Same goes with H&S, and everything else we do in life (speeding, racially insulting someone the list goes on). Its not for others (police, politicians etc) to tell us what to do if their are new laws, its for us to find out if what we do is illegal or not.

So basically H&S legislation "should" be followed by all. However its mainly those commercial jobs that will insist on it, cos they are the one liable if anything happens. Then further down the line, you responsible to your employees if you are an employer, then you as a sole trader..

You have all this kit, for your own personal safety, and also when doing commercial jobs to comply with their requirements.

Dont forget insurance small print, check it covers you using ladders where you could have done it another way or a RA etc would advise not to use them. Insurance companies are not stupid, they WILL get out of paying if they can, they are a business to make money after all.

[kenaltobelli]

i have just posted on the other site a very good reason for hse to be in your thougts always
i never dreamed a riddge tile would give way on a roof.
in the words of elton Im still standing; just lucky the legs or back arnt broken .
any body any info on geting a safe contractor pass ?

[David Slater]

No not at all. The reason i asked was that when i turn up with my wfp system and my gutter vacuuming system with it's own generator, many of my customers can't understand why i'm using this expensive kit. I then have to reply that it's all to do with health and safety these days. (the fact is i use it for my own health and safety). They sometimes shake their heads and mutter "bloody health and safety what's the world coming to?" In some ways i have to agree with them - what's the point of it all when there seems to be nobody who actually checks traders practices untill it's too late and an accident has happened. People still use unfooted ladders some at three storeys in my area, i don't wear a hard hat whilst vacuuming, my brother-in-law is a builder and never wears a hat/safety boots/goggles/masks or anything, he does plumming, roofing, building, electrics, everything and has no qualifications as such.
I know he'll get hammered if he has an accident but untill then nobody is going to stop him.

Chris has hit the nail on the head.

Personally, I have more of a problem with people grumbling about H&S as apposed to the HSE.

People who grumble about H&S arent the ones running up and down a ladder all day, or as kenaltobelli says - risking their lives on a roof! for (and lets be honest here!)....a few pounds. These are the very people that encourage dangerous working practices by wanting and accepting lower quotes without any thought for the health and safety or how the wqork will be done by those involved in the work they have contracted. THEY are breaking the law and encouraging others to break the law....and they can also be held liable! IGNORANCE of the law, is not a defence.

I'm sure if I employed their teenage son they'd be expecting me to take every measure to safeguard his health and safety......and I'm sure I'd get battered with a claim if anything happened to him while he was working!

I'm sure they wouldnt be too happy if their daughter got in to an unlicened and uninsured taxi.....but its cheaper than using a black cab?
But why is it cheaper - because he's cutting corners.

The HSE should spend a little bit more time educating the public about what they do and why they do it.

[kenaltobelli]

david you have hit the nail on the head.
if the custemer understands about the consequences of an accident it could put a lot more people in the know and would save lives i got away with it today and its the third time in ten years i have walked away but i still consider myself to be hse aware and on the whole
keep good practice when doing any job

[ftp]

Good point about the public not being aware of H&S issues. To be honest i'm not 100% aware of all the working at height directives because untill very recently it hasn't bothered me because i haven't needed to set foot on a ladder apart from step ladders. I think the public are totally confused when one side of the street is being cleaned by wfp whilst the other may be cleaned by traditional methods. Kind of makes HSE look an arse.

[mart]

We had a routine visit a few years ago. Apparantly inspecting all window cleaners who do high level commercial work.
They got our number from yellow pages, watched us working for an hour and sent us a report. They were quite helpful really,providing us with example risk assessments etc.

[Chris Galloway]

You could be working on the ground and still fall foul to the WAHR..

its not just to do with ladders.

As no one else is going to inform customers of the requirements to ensure safe working practises, it is up to you!

Inform them and look the professional.

HSE are not their to police, they are there to help.

[David Slater]

david you have hit the nail on the head.
if the custemer understands about the consequences of an accident it could put a lot more people in the know and would save lives i got away with it today and its the third time in ten years i have walked away but i still consider myself to be hse aware and on the whole
keep good practice when doing any job

Lets hope there isnt a fourth time kenaltobelli,

If someone was to ask you how much your life was worth - what figure would you put on it?

£15? £25? £150? £2,000?

Recently, I saw two guys stood on a flat glass canopy (above a third story balcony) WFP'ing the glass panels....I laughed my head off, but they did have Hi Viz jackets on.... so that must make it OK  
No harness restraint. No barriers next to the edge (of a 50' fall). No fall arrest equipment. Just stood there on glass panels brushing away merrily!!

I'm sorry.... MY LIFE   is worth more than you could ever afford to pay. I have an insurance policy for £750,000 in the event of my death and I still dont think that is adequate cover.

If they can do the job cheaper than me, then the very best of luck to them. They're welcome to it....and everything that goes with it.


Get me up on a roof for a couple of hundred quid without adequate protection?....no chance.


I'm here to work - not play Russian roullete with my life.

[paulscotney]

I'm sure they wouldnt be too happy if their daughter got in to an unlicened and uninsured taxi.....but its cheaper than using a black cab?
But why is it cheaper - because he's cutting corners. ....................................................................................................................................   The reason for that is down to the councils getting the law changed for spurious reasons.  At one time all private hire and hackneys had "public hire" insurance which covered flag down pick ups etc.  The councils didn't like this so they had the  law changed so that only Hackney carriages (proper taxis) could take out public  hire ins. The private hire(minicabs) had to take out private hire ins which would only cover them for pre booked phone bookings. So now innocent punters are not covered. So what good have the councils done?

So now the Trading standards go round flagging down private hire vehicles and then do them for plying for hire for which they get fined about £40... but they also do them for driving without insurance and they get 8 points, £1000 fine,  maybe a ban for driving without  the insurance (which the councils stopped them from buying).

Imagine what happens when we have licences for w cleaning and the trading standards get involved. Remember all the fuss about traders selling pounds of apples etc and not kgs.

[David Slater]

Good point about the public not being aware of H&S issues. To be honest i'm not 100% aware of all the working at height directives because untill very recently it hasn't bothered me because i haven't needed to set foot on a ladder apart from step ladders. I think the public are totally confused when one side of the street is being cleaned by wfp whilst the other may be cleaned by traditional methods. Kind of makes HSE look an arse.

ftp,

Please dont think that window cleaning only covers WAHR (working at height regulations)....this seems to be a common misconception!! - buy a WFP and you're problems are over!!!!

WAHR is NOT a directive. It is a REGULATION.

If you're using WFP -

what about slip/trip hazards of your hose?
what about accidentally dropping the pole?
what about signange issues while work is in progress?
what about PUWER (Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations)?
what about HSWA 1974?
what about MHSWA?

WFP isnt the 'be all and end all' of our problems. We have replaced the "hazardous" with a "less hazardous" option, but if we dont control the new hazards, then we might as well have carried on using ladders!!!

WFP does NOT release us from our duties to protect staff and others who come into contact with our working operations.

Spend a bit of time on the HSE website...and as Chris says, speak to the HSE if you have any questions  

I've spoken to them on a few occasions and have always found them to be helpful anbd informative......they're there to HELP us

[williamx]

In the 2005 wahr, its says that ladder use, should be for short durations only, but ladder cleaners are using theirs for 8 hours every day , thats not very short duration in my book.

[David Slater]

I'm sure they wouldnt be too happy if their daughter got in to an unlicened and uninsured taxi.....but its cheaper than using a black cab?
But why is it cheaper - because he's cutting corners. ....................................................................................................................................   The reason for that is down to the councils getting the law changed for spurious reasons.  At one time all private hire and hackneys had "public hire" insurance which covered flag down pick ups etc.  The councils didn't like this so they had the  law changed so that only Hackney carriages (proper taxis) could take out public  hire ins. The private hire(minicabs) had to take out private hire ins which would only cover them for pre booked phone bookings. So now innocent punters are not covered. So what good have the councils done?

So now the Trading standards go round flagging down private hire vehicles and then do them for plying for hire for which they get fined about £40... but they also do them for driving without insurance and they get 8 points, £1000 fine,  maybe a ban for driving without  the insurance (which the councils stopped them from buying).

Imagine what happens when we have licences for w cleaning and the trading standards get involved. Remember all the fuss about traders selling pounds of apples etc and not kgs.

And the problem is....?

An unlicensed or uninsured taxi/private hire is cutting corners.

Are you suggesting that I should be allowed to drive my car into town on a Saturday night and pick up fare paying passengers just because I own a car and want to earn a few quid.....but my insurance company has SPECIFICALLY said I am not allowed to do this - and should get extra cover if I wish to do this job?

The problem with unlicensed taxis/private hire is that they commit crimes such as rape and nobody can track that vehicle. Taxis/private hire driver deal with vulnerable members of the public (drunk women) and personally, I'm happy to know that young women are being transported in a safe (and insured) vehicle and that person has undergone a background check to ensure they are not a rapist or sex offender.

Not a bad bit of enforcement/control in my book.