[Chris Galloway]

Seeing as the FWC is the largest assignation to do with window cleaning, what is their take on the possibility of licensing?

It would need an organisation as large as this to get clout behind any perspective license to lobby parliament. In essence its what they (the FWC) are there for - to represent window cleaners.

[Neil Williams]

In essence its what they (the FWC) are there for - to represent window cleaners.

Technically...no their not.
They are there to represent their members not those of us who don't pay into it.....which at a wild guess would be a huge majority of window cleaners.

[williamx]

Guys,

 It should be designed to help you guys make money and keep the illegal people out.

The goverment still can't stop illegal immigrants working in their own offices and departments, what the likelyhood that a piece of paper and id card will do it.

In Birmingham there has been a Private Hire Licence scheme for over 35 years yet every day and night hundreds if not thousands of people kept getting picked up by illegal drivers, and a lot of these drivers do it in front of the police, who don't care because it clears the streets of boozed up revellers, if this is happening in just 1 city, imagine how many are breaking the law in the rest of the country.

[matt]

Pure HYDRO Cleaners, im getting a feeling you dont think it will work 

[tacky]

im sure most of us ar for it , but at the end of the day IF they ar caught its a slap on the wrist .a laugh down the pub . n back out on windows nxt day .but u have my vote

[DASERVICES]

100% agree with you, I don't have the answer but I'm sure there is one. But it would not come from the Government or Councils Officials as they are in glass houses and don't see the real world.

I'm sure if the Taxi's were part of the licensing structure they would be able to improve their trade as they are the ones that know how it runs. Anyone caught operating illegally I would propose their vehicle is seized. You can chip and pin number plates, scanned vehicles operating with out them vehicle seized. The situation can be resolved not 100% but at least making it very hard for the illegal person to operate.

On the licensing committee which governs Taxi's etc are the Councillors which you vote for. They have the power to make changes. There is a code of conduct for Councillors, I would use this as ammunition. We have already called for the removal of a Councillor from a Committtee. You need a Committee that will represent the Industry on the Committee, maybe that is what the Taxi drivers need to do is have the Committee in Birmingham removed.

These are my thoughts which can be done.

In Scotland the Committee are acountable and no one has ever challenged that. There are ways of removing them but that is the last option. And I would be confident if the taxi drivers took the Council to court they could seek compensation. The key is "standards of service".

If they fail that you can sue them

You may wonder why I'm confident in this. To cut a long story short if you live in a Council flat you pay service charges. I took the Council to Court and won substantial damages. By studying the law and the standards of service they offered which they failed, so I had the right to sue.

This is the same way I am handling the Councils in Scotland. Hope you understand what I am trying to put accross. Sometimes what I'm trying to say doesn't come out right.

Cheers

Doug

[williamx]

Pure HYDRO Cleaners, im getting a feeling you dont think it will work 

I am for a licence scheme if its for the benefit of window cleaners and the general public, I believe that the health and well being of window cleaners is paramont, chasing benefit fraudsters about is not what a licence scheme should be about.

We already pay the goverment a lot of money to chase these fraudsters, why should Window Cleaners have to pay an extra tax.

The goverment already have in mind that every citizen should have a national identity card, this card will have the capability to be uploaded with all the benefits you might be in reciept of and whether you are working or not, why do we need 2.

If there is to be a licence, then every window cleaning in the country should be polled on what they consider is a fair way for it to work, the tax man should have details on every legal cleaner.

Remember it is very easy to make new laws, but it is very very hard to remove ones that don't work, especially if the goverment are making money from it.

If you want to regulate the window cleaning industry, why not make it a requirement that every cleaner must under go some form of training, without this you cannot be a window cleaner, and its also illegal for anyone (mainly customers who turn a blind eye) to employ them.

 

[Ian Rochester]

I wonder how many people on this forum fall into the "beer money" window cleaner sect?  Probably a good few!

I think there should be some form of licence to show the public who is registered, similar to CORGI for gas.  However there are still thousands of plumbers out there working on gas systems who are not CORGI registered.

Why are the public still using them?  Because they are often cheaper than the registered plumbers and are available.

The same would happen for window cleaners, the majority of people would not get rid of their window cleaner because he wasn't licenced. especially if it meant that to get a licenced cleaner was going to cost them twice as much as before.

We clean windows in a village and are nearly three times the price of another local "beer money" window cleaner.  I know we do a better job than him and are more reliable as several of his customers have come across to us saying they are not happy with him.  However many others have stayed with him because of the price difference of coming across to us, we are charging £10 against his £3.00.

[Paul Coleman]

Seeing as the FWC is the largest assignation to do with window cleaning, what is their take on the possibility of licensing?

It would need an organisation as large as this to get clout behind any perspective license to lobby parliament. In essence its what they (the FWC) are there for - to represent window cleaners.

I'm not generally in favour of licensing but could be persuaded ONLY if there were certain safeguards.  I feel that the safeguards I would want would be unlikely to ever be implemented.  However, with government's increasing need to control and the possibility of recession turning into depression, licensing may become inevitable - especially when you bear in mind that Scotland has sometimes been used as a testing ground for UK wide legislation on other matters.
Something that has never been suggested is the free licence.  I pay my share of taxation so why not?  <tongue-in-cheek mode> They can do it for cars that are over 25 so why not W/Cs that are over 25  </tongue-in-cheek mode> .

[simon knight]

What happens in the event that you're an established w/c with a good customer base (many of which you've done for years) and you declare your earnings and pay your tax...in other words you're totally legit!

Then one fine and sunny day licencing comes to England....you being legit naturally apply....and for whatever reason you're refused! ...perhaps because only a certain number of licences are issued in a given area?

Does one then just hang up ones ladders for the last time (and not put food on the table)?  Or carry on with ones livelyhood secure in the knowledge that "policing" window cleaners is not remotely cost effective for either the incumbent council or the police and thus could never be realistically enforced?

I know what I'll do!!!

Furthermore what gives you pro-licence people the right to make sweeping generalisations that every w/c with a set of B&Q ladders on the roof of the family car and a rag hanging out of his back pocket is a "cowboy"?

Fair enough if you see one of them coming out of the benefits office clutching his giro...yeah then grass him up big-time. But away from that give people the benefit of the doubt and carry on with your business happy in the knowledge that you're sooo good that the cowboys can't impact you anyway.

[Klean07]

I would love there to be some kind of licence but like a few on here don't really think it would stop the cowboys. Besides it would take 100's of man hours just to enforce it.
One way of stopping some of the cowboys would be to firstly try and get a story published in your local paper highlighting the amount of cowboy tradesmen including wcs in your area. To ask would be custies to always ask for id and insurance details and possibly proof that they are paying their stamp. I'm sure that if someone is not legit then they won't be able to produce the latter.
I always put on my flyers/leaflets/adverts that I'm fully insured. I also point out in my brochure the importance of not employing tradesmen/wcs that aren't insured.

[williamx]

There are a lot of tv and radio programmes about that target the "Cowboys and Benefit Cheats", I have yet to see one were the "star" is a Window Cleaner.

All the other trades which also have "cowboys and benefits cheats" DO NOT have a licence scheme, and no one in them industries are shouting for one.

Why are some window cleaners crying out for a licence, is it possible that they want to general public to look at them in a different light, do they want to be seen as a legitimate trade, like the "plumbers and electricians" instead of "your just a window cleaner and anyone can do that".

Well we are a legitimate trade, and yes anyone can do it, but only those with the experence and skill can do it right.

[simon knight]

It won’t stop all cowboy window cleaner, but it should reduce them.

And the customers will get to know there is a definite difference between the two types of window cleaner.

Having a police force doesn’t stop crime happening.

I'm secure enough in my round/customers that a few (supposedly) cowboys don't fuss me...hopefully the same applies to you Sir!

[simon knight]

It won’t stop all cowboy window cleaner, but it should reduce them.

And the customers will get to know there is a definite difference between the two types of window cleaner.

Having a police force doesn’t stop crime happening.

I'm secure enough in my round/customers that a few (supposedly) cowboys don't fuss me...hopefully the same applies to you Sir!

Good for you, but that is a bit selfish

No not at all selfish! I'm perfectly happy with competition as long as the playing field is level. What the pro-licence people are doing is wanting to starve out the newcomers with red tape as they may become a threat. But this is counter-productive to there businesses:

The unlicenced people are at an advantage to the licenced! Because:

1. Not having to justify, form fill and pay for their licence(s) they can undercut freely.
2. And away from form filling/justifing have time to do it.
3. By default send hitherto legit w/c's into the black economy, saving them 30% tax and allow them even more undercutting scope.
4. Still blag their Giro (which impacts all (us) tax payers).


Licences play into the hands of the "Cowboys"!!!
   

[simon knight]

Are you a cowboy?

Wanna see my tax bill? 

[simon knight]

Ewan, to me it's like this:

If you're Waitrose you're always gonna be undercut by the Asda's of this world.

If you're a Waitrose kind of shopper (because you like their attention to detail) that's where you will shop and gladly pay the 30% premium to Asda.

However; if suddenly HM Gov says that Waitrose have to pay £50k per branch in tax and the store passes this onto it's customers and suddenly the difference is 40%...well then suddenly Asda looks much more attractive.

[simon knight]

If you want a level playing field, don’t pay tax and all the other expenses associated with being a window cleaner.

Is that what you do?

[Oakley Windows]

Yes, it is, but he offsets his tax bill against his higher child-care costs nowadays 

Anyway Ewan what happened to you answering my 2 questions in other posts about what works vehicle you drive?

[Oakley Windows]

Youre so reluctant to let us see your setup arent you Ewan, anyway where did you dream up this DIY stuff about me Ewan, youre obviously confused.

So Ewan, for the fourth time of asking what do you use as a works vehicle?

I drive a Vauxhall Combo, its not DIY, can you DIY a car?? I wasnt aware of that.

[simon knight]

Ewan, to me it's like this:

If you're Waitrose you're always gonna be undercut by the Asda's of this world.

If you're a Waitrose kind of shopper (because you like their attention to detail) that's where you will shop and gladly pay the 30% premium to Asda.

However; if suddenly HM Gov says that Waitrose have to pay £50k per branch in tax and the store passes this onto it's customers and suddenly the difference is 40%...well then suddenly Asda looks much more attractive.

You forgot about M&S.   :

If that’s your understanding fine, But until your put up a good reason I will stick with the view a licence even for only a few years will be a good thing.

Er...I thought I had...several in fact... I'm more than happy to debate them and am big enough to be shown the faults in my reasoning at which point I'll say "Yes, you're right and I'm wrong."

Either way mon ami I'm not seriously fussed.