[mattywig]

I am fed up of being undercut by cowboy windowcleaners in my area that are on the dole.  They are getting their rent paid by the goverment and a giro through the post, have no insurance to pay and no nat ins or tax to pay.  I refuse to put up with having my reasonable prices halfed by these scumbags and believe that the only way to do this is is for all of us legitimate window cleaners to be licensed in a similar way to scotland.  To get a license you should have to provide proof of self employment, nat ins contributions, public liability ins and pay a reasonable fee for a license.  This way if you see another window cleaner in your area that doesn't have a license (doley) you can report him to the police and the dss and get him kicked off.  If he comes back as competition with a license then fair play but at least we will have a level playing field.

Any ideas and/or support for this idea would be most welcome. Matt

[geefree]

I know where you are coming from.... take a look at another topic... it seems like the dole boys are somehow supported on here to an extent... if you ask me... its the dole boys who are doing the supporting.... how else can they be defended?

[Chris Galloway]

you still have unlicensed window cleaners in Scotland.

Public dont care who does em, if their licensed or not. Its been like that in Scotland for 10 years and they still dont really do much apparently.

[NWH]

Maybe they don`t care but if it wasn`t allowed by law they might think differently,going by there comments on the news last week as regards to paying WC`s by cash etc i think this might not be to far away so they can keep more of an eye on us.Just lately it`s got to be the first time ever that the government have been interested in window cleaners.

[DASERVICES]

Hi Chris,

Things are changing here gradually with loads of convictions up and down the country. The DSS are now getting involved which the SLWCN and local authorities will be having discussions next year. Here is one Police action which is still ongoing and is now happening nationwide :-

www.centralscotland.police.uk/localpolicing/stirling_stirling_braehead-broomridge.php?news_id=5232

On the other side we will be petitioning changes to the license come the next financial year so all Councils are in unison. I feel for you guys where this happens and it will get worse but for once in Scotland we have a tool that will sort it out.

[geefree]

Thats why i cant read some people on here.... who say its a badge... or a snobbery thing... or it wont stop them....

you need a street traders licence to sell lighters... but nothing to stop the dole boys window cleaning...

why dont we use our clout on here / look at some of the topics.... they are read by hundreds of people... mainly window cleaners... at a guess 

if we all joined together... with other certain federations... w/c :

then put it to an M.P...who then referred it to the house of lords....

who knows.

[mattywig]

Gazza I want it, I just struggle to organise a p*** up in a brewery if you lead we will follow!!!

[Niall McAllister]

Thats why i cant read some people on here.... who say its a badge... or a snobbery thing... or it wont stop them....

you forgot the it's just another tax.
the thing to remember is that if england went with licensing ,if someone thinks they dont need the badge, they don't have to get it. but when the councils are out on their rounds it's not the guy that follow the rules (gets the badge) that gets the fine.

it's funny that people moan about beer boys and cowboys, but don't want something that will help to sort it out :

[alanwilson]

licensing does work but only if the public are made aware that only licensed window cleaners are allowed to work, also the police need to do more to track and prosecute offenders.

[chris mc]

D.A.

I live in one of the few counties that dont have licensing in Scotland (South Ayrshire). Have you had any contact with our councillors with regards to licensing in our area?

Cheers Chris

[Paul Coleman]

Hi Chris,

Things are changing here gradually with loads of convictions up and down the country. The DSS are now getting involved which the SLWCN and local authorities will be having discussions next year. Here is one Police action which is still ongoing and is now happening nationwide :-

www.centralscotland.police.uk/localpolicing/stirling_stirling_braehead-broomridge.php?news_id=5232

On the other side we will be petitioning changes to the license come the next financial year so all Councils are in unison. I feel for you guys where this happens and it will get worse but for once in Scotland we have a tool that will sort it out.

Well that little news item said it really - about needing a license to climb up ladders.  Aren't the H & S regs taken into account when issuing these licences or was that inaccuate reporting by the press (not unheard of    )  .
Although there are certain other items that I woiuld want cleared up beforehand, a big issue is about people crossing county (or town) borders and having to pay for multiple licences.  It's no good letting this happen so they can tweak the rules later because those tweaks just won't happen.
I would prefer there to be no licensing myself, but I suspect that governments' increasing thirst to control everyone like Borg drones and the worsening unemployment situation may eventually force the issue.

[sageorgeta]

I personally dont think licenses will change anything.What is to stop an unlicensed wc coming into an area and canvassing cheaper and getting customers.The fact is he will still take away those customers from you and do you really want those customers anyway?
I know of three "WC'S" in my area that have started up in the last couple of months that are on the dole...how do i know....well they charge 50% OR MORE  less than me and other legit wc's in the area,they drive sh**y old bangers with ladders strapped on top,and they look like they need a good wash.
I have a mobile phone with a camera,so i take a pic of them up the ladders and take one of their car registration.I note the time and the place (incl house number and details) and then i email it over to the benefit office.
I dont care what people think of me with regards to doing this as i am fed up to the back teeth of working my nuts off to provide my family with a decent standard of living,yet my taxes go towards people who are nicking work from legit wc's...i'm not having it anymore.
  

[L.J.S cleaning]

yeah im fed up with this happening in the last week its been happening here gone to collect my money from one house the bloke comes to door and said you only came last week , and it was 50p cheaper. told him it couldnt of been me cause only cleaned them day before.

[DASERVICES]

Chris,

South Ayshire will not introduce it because they use offenders to do their window cleaning some would not be fit to hold a license. The only way it will be licensed if it was made a fixed law which I think it should be now as 85% of Councils now have the license.

Totally 100% agree with you lads that you will not get 100% licensed window cleaners, a lot of us would be happy with 80%. However speaking our complaint has now gone to the Chief Executive of one of the Councils who wants 100% and nothing else. We await his report and we are in the process of organising a meeting for all licensed window cleaners in that area with the Council and Police. I have to say 10/10 for the Chief of Police who wants it resolved.

A new thing was brought to our attention by the Police. If they new someone that does x building and they rang that person up and asked does x clean your windows they can then prosecute the window cleaner.

There is the issue of HSE, anyone can pick up a ladder and start window cleaning with no training on HSE. That may change, Scotland to be the first.

2009 WILL be the year of change, we have to otherwise a lot of good decent window cleaners may have to give up the trade because of illegal undercutters. The license will put an end to that and also the Nationals will be brought to justice and the Councils.

[Chris Galloway]

I agree something should be done both on a H&S viewpoint and on a benefits Fraud viewpoint. But it will be too little too late for england and wales, its taken like 10 years for the authorities to actually bother with it in scotland and still it doesn't really deter people.

What you really need is better education of the public to use trained, tax paying professionals... but the majority dont care who as long as they are clean. I wonder if their attitude is the same once their car is damaged or their convey roof is put through, and the cowboys is off on his horse into the sunset.  :

The best authority on our sides i presume would be the FWC - someone should really find out their standpoint on the issue. Its only really the like of these federations that can actually say "look weve got 150,000 members asking for licenses to ensure trained and properly insured window cleaners to prevent rogue traders" and pass that to the government. Just by one person lobbying their MP will do nothing, you need to protest en mass.

[DASERVICES]

The key for you guys in England is " TRADING STANDARDS ". They now have a wide range of powers and could provide the legit window cleaner the support. But you would need half a dozen of you in the area you work in to combine together and approach them.

There is a lot happening on that side that WILL EFFECT all so my advise is get in there and be amongst the decision making. There are a lot of consultations going on, these are open to the public

[williamx]

The reason that they need licenses is so that the council can make sure that only suitable people are licensed to climb up ladders at the rear of peoples homes!

If thats the case then wfp cleaners should be excempt from the licence scheme, because they don't use ladders.

Me thinks the councils like the idea because it generates more money for them to waste, if they are really concerned that the majority of window cleaners are "mass serial killers" or budding "Dick Turpins, then why don't they fine or imprison the customer, remember its the customer who agrees to have their windows cleaned, how hard is it for then to check that the cleaner has a licence.

The counsillors won't do this because come voting day, they will become unemployed and then they will have to get a licence and become a window cleaner to earn a living.

Also everyone thinks that because a cleaner is charging a lot less than you, he must be a dole cheat, if he has just started he won't know or have the convidence to charge the same as you, what were you charging when you 1st started, compared to what you are now?.

There are many reasons he has decided to charge what he does and they could have nothing to do with being a benefit cheat.

[RSWindows]

Hi Chris,

Things are changing here gradually with loads of convictions up and down the country. The DSS are now getting involved which the SLWCN and local authorities will be having discussions next year. Here is one Police action which is still ongoing and is now happening nationwide :-

www.centralscotland.police.uk/localpolicing/stirling_stirling_braehead-broomridge.php?news_id=5232

On the other side we will be petitioning changes to the license come the next financial year so all Councils are in unison. I feel for you guys where this happens and it will get worse but for once in Scotland we have a tool that will sort it out.

DA as with that police statement it says that the liscences are to make sure that only suitable people climb ladders at rears of peoples homes...SO if you do only commercial then does that mean that you dont need liscences for all different areas of Scotland? and if u have WFP then you are not using ladders anyway so does that mean u dont need liscences?

Im confused with the statement 

[DASERVICES]

I know I'm surprised at that statement then again am not surprised. When we have attended a few meetings the Council and Police did not know the law and what it meant. There is a huge dislink which a lot of window cleaner get miffed about when the see the Police drive past unlicensed window cleaners. The fact is they are taught about the litter fine but not the Civic Act. This is being looked into and addressed. Yes there has been flaws and the authorities have put their hands up. Unfortunatley it needed us to show them 

The law states :- –“A licence, to be known as a “window cleaner’s licence” shall be required for carrying on the trade of, or being employed as, a window cleaner". This covers everyone from commercial to domestic, no exceptions.

Here is an interesting development some have no introduced, hence the reason why I say Trading Standards. It is illegal to tout for business if not licensed!!!

Licensing has now changed, it was originally under the legal department. It has now moved to the Enviromental services. Under this blanket now sit, Trading Standards, H&S and licensing. You have to ask why that move and why those who leaflet have now been targeted for not being licensed by trading standards. I can see a big change coming hence why we need an input to the consoltations.

Lastly to clarify licensing is not a Council tax, it was brought in by the Police as a community safety initiative. There is a lot of arguement against it but if you take the negative away and it is Policed correctly, WOW WHAT A GREAT SELLING TOOL.

And and example on how things are progressing there is an increase of licensed window cleaners. The highest has been 110% in Renfrewshire Council and this has been done through Police checks. Things are happening but it will take time.

I'm giving away too many secrets

[RSWindows]

i certainly do agree with the liscences, really i do. BUT i think there should be a national option available for companys who do commercial propertys but they are spread over different areas. I have a £40k contract spread over 7 different councils and i think it is a balls-up that i have to pay all these different councils to do the EXACT SAME check that all the rest do and from that angle i can only see it as a money grabbing scheme as they simply cannot say that it is for safety...bla bla bla if i have already got liscences for other areas.

Inverclyde council....What a bunch of absolute MUPPETS!!!  couldnt run a bloomin bath!

Rant over