[DASERVICES]

100% agree with you hence one of the points we have put in the deputation for Councils is if a check has already been done with one Council then there is no need for the next Council to do the check. Therefore there should be a lower fee if you have an original license minus the £25 fee I think for the disclosure act.

If we got the service then I'm sure you would agree we would not mind paying the money.

100% agree again with Inverclyde, the same person was originally looking after Renfrew. Since his departure things have improved.

[matt]

im not against it, i just cannot see how it would work ? ? ? ?

now a dole cheat cleans windows, he knows its against he law, yet he still does it, im sure benefit fraud is a bigger crime than cleaning without a license, so what would make his stop cleaning, he is in for a penny ( with fraud ) he might aswell be in for the pound ( with window cleaning )

i dont know how much the license is in scotland, i wouldnt mind paying a admin fee of lets say 40 quid ( as its been said, it will start off at 40 quid and slowly rise into another 100 quid a year stealth tax from our local council ( who i worked for, for many a year and i know themoney they waste )

as i said in the other thread ( here is a cut and paste of it )


when i started in the building game in the early 90's they had a big campain to make sure the people on sites had a self employed card ( it was called a SC60, if my memory is correct, i think it was then called a CIS card ) i still have mine in my wallet as it happens, the idea was to stop " self employed labour " not paying tax, the rumour was the tax people would arrive with the dole inspectors and check every1 on the site, at the time i was on a rather big building site for 2 ish year, it was a site that was being built by a number of building companies, at times the site has 100's of people on it

now in the 2 years we never saw any1, we knew of a fair few who were " cash in hand guys " they were earning a little less than us

now my guess is the same goes on now  , except they will be from east europe, they pay no tax, cash in hand from the builders

its now allmost 20 years on and the same thing goes on, it didnt work in the building game  Sad would it work in the window cleaning world

it didnt work in that instance and it was easy for them, they only had to drive to any larger building site and they would have caught a handfull each time, though to be honest that handfull would have been back the next day and been earning again, people who do this do not care about a slap on he wrist / small fine, afterall, they are on the dole, they will be told by the courts to pay 5 quid a week as they need XXX amount to live each week

now doug has also raised the point of the police, my bro in law is a police officer ( see how P.C that sounded ) and nextdoor tome also is a police officer, its not a secret that the police are understaffed and straining to the point of breaking, the stories are sometimes shocking, i know for a fact that the police here wouldnt bother, they have real issues to deal with

some1 has mentioned street sellers, walk down any high street, you can bet your last penny that most will not have a license, esp the guys who sell DVD's

i would love it to work, of course if it became law, i would get 1

would it be enforced, i know the answer, the police would just say they dont have the manpower ( and to be fair, they dont )

[mark dew]

higher taxes. Noooooooooooooo.

[Niall McAllister]

im not against it, i just cannot see how it would work ? ? ? ?

now a dole cheat cleans windows, he knows its against he law, yet he still does it, im sure benefit fraud is a bigger crime than cleaning without a license, so what would make his stop cleaning, he is in for a penny ( with fraud ) he might aswell be in for the pound ( with window cleaning )

It's simple you report him to the benifit people.
some people will say "it's not up to me, I'm no grass"
If the guy stuck his hand in your pocket, you wouldn't say, "fare dues, I've lost out there"
the least you would do is report him to the police.
Well these cowboys are taking money out of our pockets

[RSWindows]

DA u remember my situation with Inverclyde council about one of my new clients? sent application form away after a heated argument with the dept and called today for a progress check, guess what?

It never arrives...utter BS!
probably gonna loose this client not a massive contract but still 2k per year.

So the dilema forced upon people...loose £2000 per year OR work without the Liscence whilst a new one is pending...know what my choice is!

[DASERVICES]

Colin,

Have been on the phone to them, I will personally chase your application through if all okay then will ask for it to be issued within 21 days. She sounded a very nice young girl, pitty she is new to the job and probably is unaware what to do.

Quote standards of service and they melt in your hands 

You can download an application:-

www.inverclyde.gov.uk/GeneralR.aspx?id=510&catid=860

Was your cheque cashed, if not you will need to cancel it. If it was then they have received your application and therefore we can lodge a complaint. Let's see if I can beat my record , issued within 2 weeks but not promising.



Hope this helps.

Doug

[RSWindows]

Doug you are a Legend, Thanks mate!!!

Cheque was not cashed so the mail must have simply blew out the window! im just in from the bank requesting a cancelation on the old cheque. I should have payed more attention to the balance to be honest and i would have spotted this sooner 

And you are right the girl Fiona sounds quite nice pitty about the others.

[Paul Coleman]

I know I'm surprised at that statement then again am not surprised. When we have attended a few meetings the Council and Police did not know the law and what it meant. There is a huge dislink which a lot of window cleaner get miffed about when the see the Police drive past unlicensed window cleaners. The fact is they are taught about the litter fine but not the Civic Act. This is being looked into and addressed. Yes there has been flaws and the authorities have put their hands up. Unfortunatley it needed us to show them 

The law states :- –“A licence, to be known as a “window cleaner’s licence” shall be required for carrying on the trade of, or being employed as, a window cleaner". This covers everyone from commercial to domestic, no exceptions.

Here is an interesting development some have no introduced, hence the reason why I say Trading Standards. It is illegal to tout for business if not licensed!!!

Licensing has now changed, it was originally under the legal department. It has now moved to the Enviromental services. Under this blanket now sit, Trading Standards, H&S and licensing. You have to ask why that move and why those who leaflet have now been targeted for not being licensed by trading standards. I can see a big change coming hence why we need an input to the consoltations.

Lastly to clarify licensing is not a Council tax, it was brought in by the Police as a community safety initiative. There is a lot of arguement against it but if you take the negative away and it is Policed correctly, WOW WHAT A GREAT SELLING TOOL.

And and example on how things are progressing there is an increase of licensed window cleaners. The highest has been 110% in Renfrewshire Council and this has been done through Police checks. Things are happening but it will take time.

I'm giving away too many secrets

Does that mean that if a Scottish window cleaner employs a leafletter, the leafletter has to have a licence too?
Also, I have seen no mention of a licence that incorporates a wider catchment area.  If it was done in England with counties  I would need three licences.  I am a sole trader who lives next to the borders of three counties. Paying for three licences might be just about acceptable for larger companies but it's quite a drain on the resources of smaller outfits.  I'm unsure if these issues are just not being adressed or if you are striving to only highlight the positive benefits of licensing whilst damping down any reasonable opposition.  It's very important (IMO) that you take heed of reasonable comments that are made against certain aspects of licensing.  That is the way forward rather than W/Cs being forced into it against their will.  It may well be that you are addressing the "multiple licence" issue but don't wish to reveal too much yet.  After all, a person who is regarded as a fit person to clean windows in West Sussex will be just as fit to clean them in East Sussex and Surrey too.

[Niall McAllister]

I know a few lads that work multiple council areas. they pay the licenses for each area. there will always be negatives for someone, but if you want to minimise these in england then the more involved you are the more say you have.
as for a leafleter, there are very few big jessies up here that pay someone else to do their work for them

[JSMC]

i am licensed for north lanarkshire and west lothian but what really annoys meis clenaing companies coming into these areas and taking my work. I have lost going places today and few months ago woolworths pity they are now closing and also all the banks and some national stores have these guys clenaing whils tnone have licence.

this really gets me rattled.

sure it is mitie that clean the cop shops and job centres yet we ge tpulled for having no licence.

bit of a joke tbh

[DASERVICES]

Soon to change  They are all on a list and a high level complaint that they should be stopped from tendering for Government & Council contracts.

[Paul Coleman]

Soon to change  They are all on a list and a high level complaint that they should be stopped from tendering for Government & Council contracts.

Are you trying to address the multiple licensing issue?

[Niall McAllister]

Soon to change  They are all on a list and a high level complaint that they should be stopped from tendering for Government & Council contracts.

Are you trying to address the multiple licensing issue?

i think what that deals with is large cleaning comps that dont get a council license for ther workers, then get the contract to clean the same councils windows. go figure

[Paul Coleman]

Soon to change  They are all on a list and a high level complaint that they should be stopped from tendering for Government & Council contracts.

Are you trying to address the multiple licensing issue?

i think what that deals with is large cleaning comps that dont get a council license for ther workers, then get the contract to clean the same councils windows. go figure

I have asked about a very reasonable issue on here.  The silence has been deafening in response.  I appreciate that D.A. Services is doing something that he feels is for the good of the industry - and indeed some aspects of it are.  However, by not responding to issues that are reasonable objections, it does cause me to wonder if he has become a bit single minded about licensing.  I understand a desire to have W/Cs on a reasonably level playing field but leaving this unresolved could result in some small players having to fork out two or three times the amount for licences purely by an accident of where they happen to live.  Such matters do need to be sorted out because  it is far better to encourage W/Cs into this so they can see the benefits, than steam rollering them into something that many of them feel is grossly unfair.
I do have concerns about the wider implications of licensing too.  Leaving it to various authorities to decide who is a fitr person is potentially devastating IMO.  It can remove a person's right to legitimate protest against other government policies at a stroke.  It's easy to gain a criminal conviction whilst making a legitimate protest against government policy even when not actually committing a crime.  I've seen people pulled from a picket line whilst doing nothing wrong, then get charged and convicted.  Try getting a licence after that.
It's easy to become blinkered whilst riding a hobby horse.
I mean no offence to Doug (D.A.) but sometimes it's a good thing to step back and hear reasonable debate without inserting one's own agenda.

[Paul Coleman]

The key for you guys in England is " TRADING STANDARDS ". They now have a wide range of powers and could provide the legit window cleaner the support. But you would need half a dozen of you in the area you work in to combine together and approach them.

There is a lot happening on that side that WILL EFFECT all so my advise is get in there and be amongst the decision making. There are a lot of consultations going on, these are open to the public

How do you get to know when and where these consultations take place?  I would certainly like to give some input if English councils and police start talking about licensing.  There are good aspects to licensing but there are also negative ones.  I think that the negative ones also need to be addressed before licensing would get underway in England.
I see licensing as inevitable eventually so to mitigate negative effects on legit W/Cs would be of primary importance.

[DASERVICES]

Hi Shiner,

Silence was due to me being a taxi service over night and then off to do a favour for a customer so apologise for not answering this thread.

If licensing or any new law implementation a notice has to be raised and published in the local newspaper. For example a Council wished to implement the license a notice would have to be issued in the local newspaper with all details, then the window cleaners or anyone have xxx days to object to and ask changes to be made. Many do not know this proceedure if probably no one at all as the Councils keep this discreet.

This is the same with a window cleaners license application there is a 28 day period for any objections which comes mainly from the Police. You would have to have done some serious crimes to be not refused a license. The Police do not have the final say as the applicant if he wishes to challenge the decision can go in front of a committee which consists of around 6 councillors. They then make the final decision. If the applicant feels he has been hard done by then he can refer it to the ombudsman.

With licensing in Scotland it is under the Scottish Law and where Councils have the right to have their own license this is covered by one law. This law covers ALL in the Civic Trade from taxi drivers, off licenses, street traders etc... There is now way we would be able to change that law as it would take years to change it and a lot of legal implications. We are therefore stuck with this law so we have to work with Councils in making a less burden to us.

For example some Councils only offer a 3 yr license and not a 1 yr license so we are petitioning them to introduce a 1 yr license as well as a temp license. So if you worked in 5 different Council areas it would cost you around £200 a year, this cost as a business you include it in your pricing.

Now if the majority were licensed for the areas they work in then we would not have these silly prices of £3.50 per house, it should be more like £8.00 min. And also to benefit our trade the amount of licenses are limited.

Enforcement and running the license is very simple to myself, I do not know why it cannot be done and have many brilliant ideas of which some are now being implemented. The problem I encountered was there was no responsiblity in the licensing department, some thought it was not their job. Things are now changing as I now know how to go about getting them changed. They have NO CHOICE.

With the current climate change this year has been the worse for me and I cannot see the climate improving up here in Scotland. We also have a high percentage of unlicensed window cleaners who are only doing it for beer money and so Joe Blogss is spoilt for choice with the £2.50 brigade. The honest person up and down the country is keeping their head above water. If this continues many will have to quit.

Therefore it is more important than ever for the unlicensed trade either to do window cleaning as a proper job and get licensed and insured or get stopped from trading. Prices cannot carry on like this and a lot of us have mortgages and families to feed. I'm all for anyone being in our industry but they must be at the same level as all licensed window cleaners then they would find it hard to keep on charging £2.50.

These are not just my words but the views of window cleaners up and down the country. With few Councils willing to implement the changes we have requested it will be very hard for an unlicensed window cleaner to go unnoticed.

What we as an Industry need to do is stop looking at the negative but look for the positive and forcing the Police to take action.

Lastley I have a knack in finding information and even some times Council's have quickly deleted the article. I have access to all Council minutes and Police details. We also have now a one to one relationship with the Police. They will not tell you where it is but they have to declare all this information under the freedom of information act.Hope this answers your questions, I could write a book about this

[DASERVICES]

Here is a very good booklet that probably explains it better than I do.

www.southlanarkshire.gov.uk/portal/page/portal/SLC_PUBLICDOCUMENTS/CORPORATE_DOCUMENTS/1_CORP_1412_Window-Cleaners-Guidance-Booklet.pdf

[Paul Coleman]

Hi Shiner,

Silence was due to me being a taxi service over night and then off to do a favour for a customer so apologise for not answering this thread.

If licensing or any new law implementation a notice has to be raised and published in the local newspaper. For example a Council wished to implement the license a notice would have to be issued in the local newspaper with all details, then the window cleaners or anyone have xxx days to object to and ask changes to be made. Many do not know this proceedure if probably no one at all as the Councils keep this discreet.

This is the same with a window cleaners license application there is a 28 day period for any objections which comes mainly from the Police. You would have to have done some serious crimes to be not refused a license. The Police do not have the final say as the applicant if he wishes to challenge the decision can go in front of a committee which consists of around 6 councillors. They then make the final decision. If the applicant feels he has been hard done by then he can refer it to the ombudsman.

With licensing in Scotland it is under the Scottish Law and where Councils have the right to have their own license this is covered by one law. This law covers ALL in the Civic Trade from taxi drivers, off licenses, street traders etc... There is now way we would be able to change that law as it would take years to change it and a lot of legal implications. We are therefore stuck with this law so we have to work with Councils in making a less burden to us.

For example some Councils only offer a 3 yr license and not a 1 yr license so we are petitioning them to introduce a 1 yr license as well as a temp license. So if you worked in 5 different Council areas it would cost you around £200 a year, this cost as a business you include it in your pricing.

Now if the majority were licensed for the areas they work in then we would not have these silly prices of £3.50 per house, it should be more like £8.00 min. And also to benefit our trade the amount of licenses are limited.

Enforcement and running the license is very simple to myself, I do not know why it cannot be done and have many brilliant ideas of which some are now being implemented. The problem I encountered was there was no responsiblity in the licensing department, some thought it was not their job. Things are now changing as I now know how to go about getting them changed. They have NO CHOICE.

With the current climate change this year has been the worse for me and I cannot see the climate improving up here in Scotland. We also have a high percentage of unlicensed window cleaners who are only doing it for beer money and so Joe Blogss is spoilt for choice with the £2.50 brigade. The honest person up and down the country is keeping their head above water. If this continues many will have to quit.

Therefore it is more important than ever for the unlicensed trade either to do window cleaning as a proper job and get licensed and insured or get stopped from trading. Prices cannot carry on like this and a lot of us have mortgages and families to feed. I'm all for anyone being in our industry but they must be at the same level as all licensed window cleaners then they would find it hard to keep on charging £2.50.

These are not just my words but the views of window cleaners up and down the country. With few Councils willing to implement the changes we have requested it will be very hard for an unlicensed window cleaner to go unnoticed.

What we as an Industry need to do is stop looking at the negative but look for the positive and forcing the Police to take action.

Lastley I have a knack in finding information and even some times Council's have quickly deleted the article. I have access to all Council minutes and Police details. We also have now a one to one relationship with the Police. They will not tell you where it is but they have to declare all this information under the freedom of information act.Hope this answers your questions, I could write a book about this

Doug.
Thank you for your comprehensive reply.
I'm not against licensing per se (although it may appear that way sometimes).  I am more concerned that the authorities, in their haste to make the neighbourhoods safer and to clamp down on tax and benefits cheating, will create a millstone around the necks of honest, legitimate window cleaners.  I really can't see why a national window cleaning license can't be issued - it seems to work OK with driving licenses.  With the current economic situation, I find that I am having to travel more in order to fill my workload - resulting in working within a number of boundaries.  Indeed, when I am working in the countryside, I often wouldn't be able to tell you which local authority area I'm actually in.
Regarding being a "fit" person to hold such a license.  Yes I do have a couple of nickings from my misspent youth.  They are long since spent and I woulds be astonished if those things were to prevent me obtaining a license.  My concern is about the here and now though.  I have related it on here before how I once came close to a fist fight because some guy disapproved of me cornering too slowly (I had a full tank of water).  It could have been necessary for me to assault someone in order to defend myself and without witnesses to back me up, that could have led to a conviction that would cost me my business under a licensing regime.  I would agree that such things are unlikely but they can and do happen.  I have little faith in the powers that be.  If you were aware of some of the things I've witnessed in my life (and I won't relate them here), you would understand my reservations better.
Once again, thanks for your post.  I genuinely appreciated it.

[JSMC]

DA are the planning to change the licence so as you dont not have to include which areas within the desiganted coiuncil area you wish to work.

at one point they were asking me what streets i would be working LOL.

also you say these cleaning companies ar ein high level complaint just now. This is still rubbish why not just prosecute them as they are breaking the rules

[DASERVICES]

DA are the planning to change the licence so as you dont not have to include which areas within the desiganted coiuncil area you wish to work.

at one point they were asking me what streets i would be working LOL.

also you say these cleaning companies ar ein high level complaint just now. This is still rubbish why not just prosecute them as they are breaking the rules

Yes , we are asking for it to be abolished
Yes they have to be prosecuted. The only company that is compliant with all licenses is OCS.