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Window Cleaning Supplies - Bulk Buying - South East Wales
« on: March 04, 2005, 08:43:06 pm »
Last week I forgot my bucket and T bar outside my last clean.  It wasn't there the next day.

So I went to my normal window cleaning supply shop and it cost £35.00 to replace, plus I spent £36.00 on twenty rubbers at £1.80 each.  Not a massive amount I know, but if I'd shopped about on the internet, I know I could've gotten them cheaper.  So a total of £71.00, for a bucket, T-Bar, sleeve and handfull of rubbers.

Then, today, a local window cleaner who doesn't/can't use the internet asked if I'd order him some gear because it's cheaper than his normal shop supplier.

So, I thought why don't us local window cleaners in South East Wales get  together, and if everyone gave me their bi-monthly order; I could arrange bulk buy - and we'd get it all cheaper (for a regular bulk purchase), without postal costs (you'd have to collect from me though). 

I'd shop around for who would give the best deal, but if I could get five other window cleaners to guarantee that they'd spend at least £30.00 on window cleaning supplies every two months, that, including me would be £180.00 every two months for all of us.  I personally spend around £20 to £30 a month.

I'd want cash (or cheque) up front, before I ordered.  Then when the gear was received, I'd photocopy the invoice, and stick on a covering letter stating what your part in the buy was (for tax deductable purposes). 

Is anyone interested who lives close to Chepstow?

Roy Harding

  • Posts: 1973
Re: Window Cleaning Supplies - Bulk Buying - South East Wales
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2005, 08:59:17 pm »
Soap national do group orders £3.75 postage next day. Unger bucket on belt £9.35 thats cheap :)

Re: Window Cleaning Supplies - Bulk Buying - South East Wales
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2005, 09:14:04 pm »
That does sound good.  3-CS charge £7.00 for any delivery under £70.00. 

I'm sure I could get free delivery and 5 to 10% discount on top though, with a regular bulk buy.

Have soap national got a website?  I'll take a look.

Roy Harding

  • Posts: 1973
Re: Window Cleaning Supplies - Bulk Buying - South East Wales
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2005, 09:21:15 pm »
 sorry but he will send you a price list with all the products in.  He will send all in one parcel and seperate invoices for every one. 20 x 36 inch unger rubbers £2.25 each. :) tel 01473 89 00 80 ask for Dave :)

Re: Window Cleaning Supplies - Bulk Buying - South East Wales
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2005, 09:41:07 pm »
Thanks Roy,

But before reading your message, I sent Soap National an e-mail.  Pity they don't have a better web-site.

Here it is.  Roy says it's good:

http://www.windowcleaningequipment.org/

Seperate invoices would be great - no messing about.  I'll see what the uptake is here. 

I know one local window cleaner will take me up on this.  Ian might, but he's a WFP guy, so I'm not sure what his usage of routine window cleaning supplies would be.

I know another local guy who might be interested too.

If it comes to nothing - it doesn't really matter.  But it's worth a try.  'A shy bairn gets nowt', as they say!

Neil

Re: Window Cleaning Supplies - Bulk Buying - South East Wales
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2005, 09:42:48 pm »
Try this

http://www.soapnational.co.uk/

Neil


PS I have been using them for a long time now and find their service to be excellent


Neil

Re: Window Cleaning Supplies - Bulk Buying - South East Wales
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2005, 09:45:38 pm »
 ;D

marc al

Re: Window Cleaning Supplies - Bulk Buying - South East Wales
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2005, 08:34:51 am »
 Try wintecs, free next day delivery and between 5% & 15% discount, increases with the order valua (obviously)

   www.wintecs.co.uk

  marc

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Window Cleaning Supplies - Bulk Buying - South East Wales
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2005, 09:30:52 am »
A good idea Tosh, unfortuately my own spending on trad gear is pretty low now, I reckon most my rubbers will get to perish before I get to use them ;D (and I don't mean the french variety either 8))
Its a good idea though, there should be enough of us local window cleaners around to make use of such a setup too.
Maybe other groups of window cleaners, from other areas could pool together and do the same thing??
And for those that can't, well there now seems to be a few nice links direct to different online suppliers, so at least it makes it really easy to visit them all and compare prices ;)

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Philip Hanson

  • Posts: 652
Re: Window Cleaning Supplies - Bulk Buying - South East Wales
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2005, 09:31:43 am »
Bulk buying is a good idea in principle, but the problem is that you'd end up being a "window cleaning shop" eventually.

For example, say it really took off and you were getting loads of orders from people all over the place, eventually you'd realise it was MUCH cheaper to deal directly with Unger, Pulex, Ettore etc than with their distributers, and you'd have the volume to do it.

Next, you'd find that organizing this scheme was pretty much a full-time job in itself, so you'd need to draw a wage from it, and you'd have to add a little bit to the cost of things.

Next, you'd find that so many window cleaners were popping by to collect stuff, and you've got it all over the kitchen and living room etc, you really need a little commercial unit.  And to make things easier you need to set up a little website for people to order from.  This is yet more expense, so the prices need to go up just a little more.

Congratulations, you now have a business exactly like Scrim City, The Window Clean Centre, Wintecs, Window Cleaning Warehouse etc.

Quote
Then when the gear was received, I'd photocopy the invoice, and stick on a covering letter stating what your part in the buy was (for tax deductable purposes).
I understand why you'd do this, but the tax man would not go for this at all.  You'd be treated as a supplier, and required to issue invoices yourself to the companies you deal with.  Also, the window cleaners you deal with would not be able to claim tax relief on an invoice issued to you, even with a letter.

I'm afraid that my personal opinion is that window cleaning equipment is WAY too cheap at present.  And I really do mean its far too cheap.

You might think this is a good thing, but it is not.  Low prices might seem good in the short term, but in the long run they cause the industry many problems.

For example, do you remember when Unger brought out the very first Bucket-on-a-belt?  I do, and what a fantastic invention it is!  How did we ever manage without it?

Developing new products is very expensive for manufacturers, and if they aren't making enough profit then they can't do it.  If prices had been as low as they are now a few years ago, I don't think we'd have a bucket-on-a-belt at all.  I beleive that all hand-tool manufacturers in this country are now making less profit than they ever have, and though that means prices drop (for now) eventually it will mean an end to innovation.

We really do need new products like the BOAB, The Microfibre Cloth, The Stutzy, The Ergotec Locking Cone and so on.  If new ideas are stifled, then we all will lose out.

If you think I'm exagerrating, then you'll soon see it for yourself in a few months time.  A certain manufacturer of very good hand-tools has decided to discontinue its entire range, and this equipment will disappear forever when its present stocks are sold off.  Now these tools incorporate some unique features, that no other brand does.  I'm not at liberty to say which manufacturer, but you'll see who it is soon enough. 

For those of us who have moved over to WFP, how much do you now spend o squeegee rubbers?  I bet its a quarter of what you used to.  But "consumables" are what keep manufacturers and distributers afloat.  Of course, no-one would suggest buying more than you need in order to help the industry, but we should be prepared to pay a fair price.

I would be happy to see hand-tool prices rise by at least 30%.  I think its going to take this to prevent the UK market from collapsing in the long term.  After all, how often do we buy a new BOAB?  or a new T-Bar?  Not very often.

I'd be prepared to pay a little bit more if it meant that we continue to get nice new products developed.

-Philip
Editor, Professional Window Cleaner Magazine

"The irony of the information age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion"
John Lawton

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Window Cleaning Supplies - Bulk Buying - South East Wales
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2005, 10:28:37 am »
Ooo, good reply Philip.
Though instead of pricking the balloon of thrifty innovation, you machine-gunned it out of the sky with an uzi 9mm :o
I do take your point though, in the end it all comes down to market forces doesn't it, supply and demand and so on.
Almost 21 years ago I invented my own bucket on a belt, years before Unger started selling them, and I also made up my own pouches too, in truth they were better than the huge things that Unger now do, and better too than the green ones that they also still do (I think)
At that time I was a rarity, now, no serious window cleaner would be seen dead without their equipment belts and BOAB.
There are some things in all jobs, that once you have bought them, you only need to replace them on rare occasions, they tend to have long lifespans.
One of the window cleaning buckets I have is well over 10 years old :o
I also think that quality will always shine through, and that provinding it is still fair value for money, even if it is a more expensive product, it will keep on selling.
Some time ago I bought Ungers 'Scrim Clamp' (I think it is actually called something else) a brill idea, but a poor product, all green plastic and expensive to boot. I still use it, but would gladly pay double for one that is actually of any use.
Also the cost of actually producing goods usually becomes more refined and therefore cheaper.
Look at the way they are constantly changing squeegee handles, we now have a huge variety to choose from. 20 years ago, as I recall, the only one I could get was the Ettore brass one :-\ R & D will always continue, even if a company of good repute does go tits up, at some point their niche will be filled by someone else.

I think that Tosh's idea was a good one, as Philip says, it may not really turn out to be practical because of the tax man and so on, but I don't think it would mean that Windows_chepstow would necessarily turn into the next Scrim City!!

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Re: Window Cleaning Supplies - Bulk Buying - South East Wales
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2005, 04:35:17 pm »
Philip,

Thank you for taking the time to present a well thought out and lengthy reply.  I didn't agree with everything you said, but much made sense.  I can't remember the invention of a bucket on a belt as I have just entered my third year of window cleaning.  But window cleaning supplyers, like 'most' other  industries, are based on Darwinian principles of survival of the fittest.  If they can't compete, they'll die!  (I say 'most' other industries, because a one has popped into mind as to having almost no competition).

However, while lying in bed at 4.00 am this morning, a thought struck me!  I woke Wor Lass and tried to discuss it with her.  She wasn't happy and called me a few names.  I can't remember them all, (crazy, stupid, etc) but they were quite strongly phrased.

Anyway, in a flash I realised buying window cleaning supplies is 'tax deductable', one hundred percent. 

Therefore every penny spent on window cleaning supplies is a penny less to the tax man; so it's a false economy. 

So apologies for spouting half-baked ideas about your forum.

I'll also post my second hand rubbers off to the 'person' who asked me to and sent a stamped addressed envelope to me(since I change them almost every day) and tell him to b@gger off and help the industry and buy some new ones.  He'll get no more from me!


Philip Hanson

  • Posts: 652
Re: Window Cleaning Supplies - Bulk Buying - South East Wales
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2005, 09:04:07 pm »
I'm sorry, I think my reply sounded a bit harsh, and I genuinely didn't mean it to!

Buying in bulk is of course a very good way to save money, and I know of instances where a group like this one has gotten together to bulk buy a single product and realised a discount of 50%.

The supplier was happy because they had a volume sale they otherwise wouldnt have, the group was happy because they all had an expensive piece of equipment that they otherwise couldnt afford.

I suppose there's no reason it couldn't work with window cleaning stuff, say we all got together and placed a massive order once every 6 months and picked it up from south wales.  I bet we could negotiate a sizable discount and even deal directly with manufacturers.

The admin might be a bit fiddly, but not insurmountable.

(To be honest, I wasnt having a go at you chepstow, but I veered off into another issue- the fact that hand tools are too cheap)

Interestingly, The Federation has done something similar and sells equipment at very aggresively discounted rates.  You'd be hard pressed to find a cheaper supplier.  But, this has raised its own problems.  For one thing, this means that fed has a "business" side to it that might have conflicting interests for its membership.

(For example, there have been cases where a cheaper supplier has been prevented from advertising allegedley because the Fed could not compete with its prices.  Now this is of course not in the window cleaners interest, and if that supplier was to take their complaint to the Office of Fair trading, my guess is that the fed would be ordered to allow free competition.)

Also, the fed do not supply WFP equipment, so some could argue that purely to protect its own profit, it is not promoting the use of WFP even though its widespread use would save the lives of window cleaners.

Whether that is actually the case or not, isnt really the point.  An organization that is representing the industry's interests should not have conflicts of interest like this in my opinion.  Indeed I doubt it would be tolerated in any other industry.

Also, does aggressive discounting help our industry?  As I have already mentoned, in the long term it does not help at all, but rather it stifles innovation which harms the industry.

All in all, bulk buying is a good idea.  If you could get the admin to go smoothly, it could work.

-Philip

Editor, Professional Window Cleaner Magazine

"The irony of the information age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion"
John Lawton

Re: Window Cleaning Supplies - Bulk Buying - South East Wales
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2005, 07:37:26 pm »
Thanks, Philip.  I think it makes a nice change (and a first) for an apology to come in my direction.  (It's normally vice versa.)  It wasn't required though and I honestly thank you for your input.

So, come on then?  Any takers for bulk buying in South East Wales?  Soap National may give us a discount if we get enough takers!