[seandyer2003]

I reckon that starting from scratch and without buying work, you'd be looking at an absolute minimum of two years before you're clearing 30k.

you would need to be VERY switched on, live and breathe window cleaning  with a passion and work seriously hard cleaning, advertising, leafleting/canvassing , collecting, improving equipment etc and be totally dedicated to achieve this.

it might take some 5 years, some 10 years, and some may never achieve it.

most probably don't want to as they're happy to earn less than 30k profit and still have a life.

good luck, but a cakewalk it ain't!

I think buying work would be a good way to start just so you have go some work to get going, i almost nearly packed in when i started as i had bits of rounds badly priced here there and everywhere and thankfully a friend semi retired and sold me a good round which gave me a foundation to work on, i think if i were starting over and didnt know where to buy, or find a round id go with a canvassing company as you set the prices and area etc, and its loads cheaper than buying just 2 x the value! Id get them to find a couple of days work a week then start leafleting and knocking on my days off, unless you could afford for them to just build your whole round?

[ftp]

Ian, why do you put your phone number on nearly every post? Doesn't seem five minutes ago you were asking where to get your van system from? Don't you speak to your wife any more?

                                          Just Curious  

[pingu]

It is very possible to reach the 30k mark in two years...without canvassing and using only word of mouth and leaflets (20k) I am very close to the 30k(pre-tax) mark based on year end projections using George.

Looking at our figures there is plenty of scope of work more hours thoughout the year...it's about thinking and watching your business grown in every way and watching every figure...I can tell you many litres I use every day, complete average for my business...if you do not know what your business is doing how can you make changes in an effective manner...yes we are window cleaners but how many are just employees?

We have been going 110 weeks now...as with any business it is about plugging away and pushing yourself in so many ways.

Granted we know turnover and our take home wage are worlds apart but pre-tax 30k...in my humble opinion is very obtainable...yes there are very many variables to obtaining the 30k but it can be done. No matter where in the country you are...I believe that if you work hard enough, apply yourself this number will come.

Cheers
Dave.

[Moderator David@stives]

Alan

Ok you found cheeper Expenses, doesnt mean mine is wrong.

My overheads brought me more respect and a much increase turnover,

Clothing with your name on is allowable.

Do i want a second hand van? no

Telephone ? I have about 20 business calls a day, always have done.

Advertising has heped my business enormously, as well as attending trade shows and training courses, these are a fundamental part of any business.

As for the rest of the expenses, I reckon most people here with a £50k turnover will recognise those expenses.

Yes you can do it on the cheap, but the difference in expense to turnover ratio, will grow as your business grows.

Reckon up your expenses and they still come to a fair amount.

As for employee costs, no matter what i dont reckon many one man bands turnover £40k so employee costs would be an expense.

I have just dragged out one of my old profit & Loss accounts and it shows £40,121 turnover, Net profit for year before depreciation £25,398, , Employee costs were £6,886

If I remember rightly there is no way i could of done that turnover without employee help,

These are actual figures not guesstimats.

[Moderator David@stives]

Over heads on a £50k turnover   

Vehicle payments or depreciation £4k   I'll give you that one. I pay £4k.

Fuel, tax, insurance , repairs £4-£5k      Eh?!  £1500 max surely?

equipment £2k- £3k    How do you manage that?!  Think I spent about £200 last year.                   

advertising , envelopes , computer £2k   

Telephone £300       Free calls at £40 a quarter including personal use.

Where do you get those figures from Dave? 

I don't dispute you spend that much (although god knows how), but that's not typical of an average window cleaner on here.

Sounds like you give all your money away!

Rog

ok you agree with the top one,

 you say you only have £1500 in motoring expenses, that is only £30 a week to cover your tax insurance and fuel and repairs, i have just had a bill for a service, 2 tyres and a wing miiror for over £500 alone.

Equipment, i spent at least £2k on poles , a60ft extel , a supalite and an slx, so my figure was a bit conservative there is over £2k resin was about £1k , thats without all , the other stuff you need.

Advertising my yellow pages and yell.com was £2k so that figure was conservative.


I only spend for success, nothing more nothing less

[ronnie paton]

alan just beacause your epenses are less doesnt mean we all have the same, marketing is essential to expand FACT.

stationary £100 could spend that on some business cards, then you have paper ink stamps and lots more.

i thinkyou couldprob look at expenditure of between 40% and 60%  with a full time employee depending on how much you pay your employee your quality of work and if you have any start up debts

[alanwilson]

If thats how much you guys spend on advertising etc then fine - thats entirely up to yourself.

My approach to business is slightly different.  With 2 vans and 4 men (including me) annual turnover is in excess of £110k, I have my son and 2 guys to pay out of that figure along with all other expenses.  I don't spend money on advertising, other than uniforms and sign writing etc.  I have no need to - if I want to take the world on then yes I would spend money on advertising but I just don't need to.

Whats wrong with a second hand van Dave?  Our vans are kept immaculate and well serviced and are every bit as good to us as a new van.

Spending for success is essential I agree but it sounds to me like overkill (apart from the poles).  20 calls a day?  Dave, how do fit them all in??  assuming you got half of them, thats 10 new jobs a day - probably commercial - you'd need to be taking on 1 new member of staff every day at that rate. 

[seandyer2003]

Over heads on a £50k turnover   

Vehicle payments or depreciation £4k   I'll give you that one. I pay £4k.

Fuel, tax, insurance , repairs £4-£5k      Eh?!  £1500 max surely?

equipment £2k- £3k    How do you manage that?!  Think I spent about £200 last year.                   

advertising , envelopes , computer £2k   

Telephone £300       Free calls at £40 a quarter including personal use.

Where do you get those figures from Dave? 

I don't dispute you spend that much (although god knows how), but that's not typical of an average window cleaner on here.

Sounds like you give all your money away!

Rog

ok you agree with the top one,

 you say you only have £1500 in motoring expenses, that is only £30 a week to cover your tax insurance and fuel and repairs, i have just had a bill for a service, 2 tyres and a wing miiror for over £500 alone.

Equipment, i spent at least £2k on poles , a60ft extel , a supalite and an slx, so my figure was a bit conservative there is over £2k resin was about £1k , thats without all , the other stuff you need.

Advertising my yellow pages and yell.com was £2k so that figure was conservative.


I only spend for success, nothing more nothing less

My insurance just for my car is £2500 a year before tax, mot, service, repairs etc!!

[seandyer2003]

I have just dragged out one of my old profit & Loss accounts and it shows £40,121 turnover, Net profit for year before depreciation £25,398, , Employee costs were £6,886


Thats all your were paying in wages?? Or is that just the cost exclusive of wages?

[Moderator David@stives]

Alan

With a £110 turnover and 4 men to support , that is tough going, i would be very worried on them figures and would want to put the prices up.

This Also contradicts what you said earlier is a £30k wage achievable, on them figures i think just about.

£110k turnover
£20k must be vat
so you are down to £90k
wages must be £45 k
expenses another £15k

So that gives you £30k profit.



Also I didnt say there was anything wrong with a second hand van, I drive a new one the staff drive old ones.

If i was a one man band i would want a brand new one.

20 calls a day, are not all quotes

It just seems that you want to pick on every point i say, so i will bow out of this one, and leave everyone to make up there own minds.

Obviously I am doing something wrong even though my turnover to man ratio is double yours.

It just seems that you want to pick on every point i say, so i will bow out of this one, and leave everyone to make up there own minds.

[Moderator David@stives]

Sean

Yes that was my full employee cost for that year, including employer Ni contributions

Dave

[seandyer2003]

Sean

Yes that was my full employee cost for that year, including employer Ni contributions

Dave

So it was only part time or something, because im looking to employ no later than this time next year but im struggling to work it all out because its easy to do sums on paper but its difficult to know if they are practical....ie supposing a employee will do £200 a day 5 days a week? Means having very good work in abundance and them working very hard for 7 hours, then what will they want in wages so they wont think of doing it themselves?? 40%?? Then theres vat, 40% tax etc, almost works out at alot of work looking after someone and paying their wages for little return?? Only other way is to reduce wage but then you will struggle to get someone decent.....its all a bit of a head ache aint it? But then its the only way to get off the bottom rung of being a sole trader!

[Moderator David@stives]

Sean

Dont worry if they leave to work for themselves, if they are going to do it, they will do it.

My advice is to start with a part timer, train them up put them on a low wage to start, then increase it as they improve.

To expect £200 a day from an employee is a tall order at first, I would just look at them to make your life easier, rather than profit in the beginning.

When you have enough work, put them full time or find someone else, part timers only last a year or 2 , there are plenty out there who are essentially lazy and ar happy with part time.

Just take one step at a time and cross each hurdle as it arrises

[seandyer2003]

Sean

Dont worry if they leave to work for themselves, if they are going to do it, they will do it.

My advice is to start with a part timer, train them up put them on a low wage to start, then increase it as they improve.

To expect £200 a day from an employee is a tall order at first, I would just look at them to make your life easier, rather than profit in the beginning.

When you have enough work, put them full time or find someone else, part timers only last a year or 2 , there are plenty out there who are essentially lazy and ar happy with part time.

Just take one step at a time and cross each hurdle as it arrises

You reckon its possible out of an employee who is experienced and paid well on good work though?

[Moderator David@stives]

If you have the right work for them, which takes time to find.

You have to ask can you turnover £200 a day evey day and keep motivated, if you cant do, then how can you expect your staff to do it.

Dont forget the down time off the employees, ie holidays, sickness and bad weather.

[seandyer2003]

If you have the right work for them, which takes time to find.

You have to ask can you turnover £200 a day evey day and keep motivated, if you cant do, then how can you expect your staff to do it.

Dont forget the down time off the employees, ie holidays, sickness and bad weather.

Well i dont like saying what i can and cant do but i wouldnt ask someone to do what i cant put it that way, but i only do 3-4 days and i work long and hard and am young thats why i say would staff do it, but i am planning on getting a canvasser from jan to start finding good work so i can take someone on later in the year so i figure work priced at £30 so they can do it, and would pay very well to keep incentivized but like i say its all on paper, so i wondered what experience those that had already been there had!?? Do you know any averages what staff working alone on wfp are doing??? On 90% residential

[Moderator David@stives]

Its hard to say as all residential is different.

[macmac]

One advantage of being self-employed is that you can earn the equivalent of £30k pre-tax salary without earning £30k!

A carefully structured business, with good accounting and tax management will allow you to experience the same level of income without actually having to earn £30k.

There are many disadvantages to being self-employed, one of the advantages is that many expenses can be used to offset against the business that you are already having to spend even if you are on a salary.

Not many sole trader WC will earn £30k after taxable expenses, but many do have the equivalent to a £30k salary and work a lot less hours.

Realistically you would only need to 'earn about' £24k as a self-employed trader to have a similar take-home as a £30k salary. This is if you have good accountancy advice and make full use of all allowances.

Agree with this post. Following the advise above, there are far more benefits to being self employed than employed.

Tony

[seandyer2003]

Its hard to say as all residential is different.

If say you could average 25-30, would an employee do the same??

[ronnie paton]

sean i will give you a tip, your still young so take your time always make sure your prepeared b4 you take on the next level, if you jump into employing without having the cashflow it could be a bad move.

I my self am only young at29 iv been running my business 3 years and have always tried to employ before i was ready(without haveing the work to employ full time) so i invetsed in another window cleaning business which gave me enough to pay an employees wages.

i didnt earn much more but my life is so much easier and i know have time to go to quotes and to continue to expand, employing isnt always about making more money instantly but about making more money and working less in the future        !!!!