[Musicman]

Hi guys, for once I am seeking advice as, for all of the years I've been involved in the cleaning industry, this has never happened to me before.

I've recently been awarded a contract and have contacted the outgoing contractor for TUPE information. Despite reminders of their legal obligations I still have not had any documentation.

The contract has been up and running for four weeks now and I've reached the point where I realise that I am not going to get the necessary information.

I do not wish to involve solicitors as their costs for doing what I already have done are prohibitive.

As I have since won another contract from the same company and have tendered for a couple more sites that they do I will be faced with the same problem on at least one more occasion.

I can't see BICSc (waste of space IMHO) being of any use.

Where do I go from here?

Any ideas?

All help greatly appreciated.

Musicman

[George-Reid]

Musicman
This happened to me one time I got the FSB legal help line involved. i.e. Solicitors but not the cost.
Good luck
Cheers

George

[Mike_Boxall]

Hi Musicman

There is a department of the DTI that deals with disputes over TUPE. I did a quick search on the DTI website for you - I think the number you need to ring is: 020 7215 2620

Perhaps you'd let us know the outcome as I'm sure it must happen all the time.

Regards

Mike

[Musicman]

Thanks George and Mike, I'm very grateful for your input.

I've never experienced this before and haven't heard of it happening to anyone else either.

The company in question is a fairly sizeable national outfit so they really should know better.

Perhaps other members have had it happen to them - interesting to find out.

Thanks again.

MM

[Len Gribble]

MM

Although mine was the other way round, the company (very big) who took the contracts did not approach me only the cleaners.

I wonder why? Double side coin = don’t give info too soon problems for the incumbent Co or the out going Co gives miss information, very sad I know!

If you get no joy, each employee should have a copy of there contract terms and conditions etc, and you take it from there, sorry I cant be of more help.

Len

[garyj]

I've taken over quite a few contracts over the years from the large companies, and have NEVER had any employment details forwarded to me, despite repeated requests. The only thing I could do was ask the employees what rate they are on etc, sure I've been lied to on at least one occasion.

Lens idea of asking for the previous contract is so obvious I never even thought of it, so thats what I'll do next time.

[martin19842]

this is a common thing, where the outgoing contractor does not communicate with the incoming cleaning company and trys to use this to provide service disruption.

i have in the past asked the client to call the contractor and this sometimes works.


the other case is where the outgoing contractor rams info down your throat, again in an effort to cause disruption.

regards

martin

[Malcal]

Hi Musicman

Been in this situation from the other way round. it turned out the company did not employ cleaners only sub contractors on a self employed basis and therefor didnt have any obligations with respect to NMW, TUPE or insurance ect. This company discribed itself as a cleaning MANAGEMENT company or AGENCY. Thinking about this myself as no P45, P46, P60, PAYE, FTaxCredit, proof of ID or any other time consumming, costly admin. How can we compete with this.
Cheers Mal

[martin19842]

i used to work with one of these franchise type companies, and the TUPE obligation does fall upon the company who has won the copntract,  it is their responsibility to deal with any TUPE implications, prior to the contract start, irrelevant of whether they sub contract the work to a self employed cleaner or not. 

if the TUPE is not settled prior to the work starting then the outgoing operatives, have a valid case against both the MANAGING company and the new sub contractor, and this has infact been tested in court.

Just because a company is a services managment company, rather than a direct employer, does not mean that they can bypass the legislation.

hope that helps

regards

martin

[Timmy Boy]

Musicman
I am in the process of a TUPE transfer where the existing contractor has supplied me something (which makes a change), but has blatantly lied on the info given. IE he has put on there that all staff get 20 days holiday per year (some get 23!) but when I spoke to the staff yesterday they informed me they get 10!
Surely this can't be legal or does TUPE work on a 'what goes around comes around' basis and you then stiff the next contractor who gets your business?!
The other thing my TUPE staff have been told that if they take any holiday between now & when we takeover they will be sacked! Can I do anything about this?
Regards

Tim

[Musicman]

Hi Tim, firstly if the cleaners work 5 days a week they have to have a minimum of 12 days a year as (I think it's) The Working Time Directive states a minimum of 20 days. Sadly most companies in our industry uses the 8 Bank Holidays to use some of the entitlement up - thus leaving 12 days. This is due to change soon so all staff will have (pro-rata based upon 5 days a week) 20 days PLUS Bank Holidays.

The taking of holidays in the interim period issue is pure B/S. As disciplinary/dismissal procedures have just been tightened up any employee that would be sacked under such a move would automatically win if they took the outgoing employer to a Tribunal (average payout I'm informed is around £3.5k).

You main question relates to what I was getting at in my original question ie 'who governs infringements in TUPE transfers?'.

I guess that Mike's advice was the most appropriate in referring any questions to the DTI and see what they can do.

I hope this helps.

Musicman

[Timmy Boy]

thanks for that mate, I'll give the DTI a call
Regards
Tim

[carloso]

hi
only a newbie but maybe this will help for next time,
i joined the f s b recently, three reasons only, tell a lie four reasons
1
they can give advice and deal with all your employment issues as part of the package
2
they will deal with tax audits as part of the package if you get one
3
they offer discounts on holidays ( dont say whats a holiday)
4
they are cheap and could save you thousands

see newbies have there uses, its not all cribbin for ideas

[Timmy Boy]

Musicman
I have just signed up with a company called Penninsula who take on all your personnel issues. They even are going to write up a employee handbook just for us. On top of that you get access to their 24/7 helpline which has lawyers, ex union chaps and the like available. They then give you the advice and then (this is the best bit), if you have followed their advice they will take on the issue if it goes to court and pay out of if you lose! We have signed up and now we feel that we are the employers and they are the employees!!
If you want a contact number for these guys let me know, it is cheaper than you think!


Regards
Tim

[buddy]

When you first tender for the contract ask the prospective client to give you the information let them do the chasing
i have even had a client withhold the outgoing companies
final payment. Check signing in books, ask for payslips or proof of payment from the cleaning staff. Any problems with the staff send them back to the previous employer.

Remember they may have to give you the TUPE information,it does not have to be correct, do your own checks as above.

good luck

Steve

[a55essor]

 Can anybody help? If a cleaning company lost a contract do the cleaners have the right to TUPE regulations or does TUPE only apply if a business is sold.
Kev@KL Cleaning

[Len Gribble]

Both

Len

[martin19842]

its one of the biggest areas of concern in the market.

and cause huge headaches especialy for the client. there are two reasons why clients change companies, one - price two - service.

then when you tell the client that tupe is in play and they will have the same cleaner, they are horrified beacause they think they will get the continued poor service.  So you then have to manage the situation.

so good luck

regards

martin

[a55essor]

Yes the reasons are poor service. so I have an uphill struggle, what I saw of there cleaning was some what hap hazard
Thanks for your replies 

[Len Gribble]

Martin

Not if the cleaner jacks in, a win win scenario. But if not ask for there T&C, I once had they were entitled to bank holidays plus the holiday entitlements; they even set the citizen advice on me.

At the end of the day the customer  = price = what is achievable within the time frame

Best of luck

Len