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Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2008, 04:35:36 pm »
Not as easy as I think?

We all said how tough it was, and I believe peter gave some excellent advice and real life examples of how a similar real life publication had fared and what the problems had been.

You and your oppo are forever puting your foot in it and upsetting people and i can't think of anyone with a worse record for gaffes on here.True, you are not a terminal windbag drunk on your own editorialising, but you are not succinct, nor overly bright either.

I think that this thread is testimony that some very talented people with all the brains and resources in the world gave this a very good shot and still couldn't pull it off.

WCE

  • Posts: 968
Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #61 on: October 19, 2008, 04:44:29 pm »
Gaffes, who me? You must be joking and I certainly cant think of anyone I have upset. I am also quite offended that you seem to be accusing me of being thick now. This is what I meant, you seem hellbent on me failing. One of the reasons I stopped mentioning the development of the magazine was because of your constant negativity towards the project. I don't mind constructive feedback and I your welcome to your opinions but if you are just going to bad mouth me why would I want to listen to you? The word troll springs to mind.......   
WCE- For Windows that shine everytime!

Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2008, 04:58:52 pm »
You know the main gaffe I mean, and no it wasn't you, agreed, but as in the above first post from you, you felt the need to have another poke at a potetial advertiser. In your next post you call me a troll.

If you are going to be an editor, and perhaps hate me and everything i stand for, you have to find a more diplomatic way of saying it. A good example would be Alex, who hardly seems to offend anyone (aside from jealousy), and to be fair Peter too. Dave st Ives lets slip good info without contention or going near libel. I think you could pick a fight with Ghandi.

To broaden the argument a little Matt's comment, that if a product was s=== he would say so, is not the sort of review you would want, or even be able to print.

Sorry if you see all this as constant negativity, i'm sure if I was on your board I could hammer you into shape, but even if the mag was brilliant most of us now believe that it has been proved that this can't work as a business.

Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2008, 05:12:11 pm »
Anyway cheer up, we are only shooting hot air, it's only opinions!

One day you'll say "you laughted when I said I was going to be an editor. You are not laughing now!!!"

Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #64 on: October 19, 2008, 05:27:06 pm »
You may be right ewan, if the mag is still going and has proved a success with people happy to pay the cover price then you are.
But this is a thread first started in 2005, and lots must have happened since. Dave said he could write a book didn't he?




WCE

  • Posts: 968
Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #65 on: October 19, 2008, 05:36:47 pm »
Thats fair enough discount, I wasn't having a poke at anyone I was just stating the facts regarding the comment you made. Yes I called you a troll basically because you called me thick. I don't hate you in fact I think that some of the advice you give is very good it's just sometimes you seem to like to have a go at me. Like I said above when your like that why would I want to listen to you. As for your comment about being more diplomatic fair enough. I didn't realise I was coming across that way to you. I will try to be more diplomatic in future. 
The reviews, this has always been an issue and maybe some have the wrong impression. I personally want the reviews to be as truthful as they can be, no way do we want a review that justs says a product is *hit. What are the reasons it's so bad? what could be improved? If these points were raised then the review could be quite useful for both the readers and the manufacturer. But as you say without that  we would be left with a useless review that we wouldn't want or be able to print. By the same token we don't want to review products where we are told we can only print good things even if the product was *hit. I refuse to put my name to a review where I have to lie just to keep the manufacturer happy. That was the point I was trying to make earlier.       
  Now the gaffe you refer too. That was nothing to do with me or the magazine and if you think back I agreed with you that what sanity did was wrong. I wish he had never done it and could understand that it would reflect badly on the Magazine if you have a co-editor making those comments. However he did admit it was wrong and I know that he deeply regrets doing it. In fact if you look you'll see he hasn't been back on here since his apology. We have spoken about what happened and although he isn't on here now he is still involved in the production side of the magazine however, we have agreed that he will take a role behind the scenes and I will do the public side of it.
Finally the point about it not working as a business. I know it can. Remember I am not out to make loads of money from it as long as it covers it's costs then thats fine. If I make a small profit then even better but this magazine isn't intended to be something that makes me bucket loads of money and is not going to be my only business and as long as it does not lose money then thats fine by me.
WCE- For Windows that shine everytime!

WCE

  • Posts: 968
Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #66 on: October 19, 2008, 05:49:20 pm »
Anyway cheer up, we are only shooting hot air, it's only opinions!

One day you'll say "you laughted when I said I was going to be an editor. You are not laughing now!!!"

I know what you mean!!! and thats what I meant when I said I look forward to proving you wrong ;)
 
You may be right ewan, if the mag is still going and has proved a success with people happy to pay the cover price then you are.
But this is a thread first started in 2005, and lots must have happened since. Dave said he could write a book didn't he?
I think that PWC was a failure for two reasons: 1. They tried to run before they could walk and then when they had to sell out to ionics they destroyed thw original concept of it.
2. It was run as a stand alone business on commercial terms. As I explained above the way I plan to do it doesn't make this assumption and we are not just in it for the money. I certainly would never imagine the magazine to make me a million and certainly wouldn't consider launching it as my only business. The fact is there is only a limited market for the mag so it would be foolish to make an assumption that it could be run as a full scale business especially after seeing what happened with PWC. However it could pay for itself and bring something to the window cleaning world. As long as it breaks even I am happy.   
WCE- For Windows that shine everytime!

poleman

  • Posts: 2854
Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #67 on: October 19, 2008, 08:02:40 pm »
Well going by what Toss said!

I do hope that was a typo.  It's Tosh, not Toss!

Lol whoops sorry  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I mean Tosh  ;)

Andy

Philip Hanson

  • Posts: 652
Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #68 on: October 20, 2008, 03:19:30 pm »
Was it really 3 and a half years ago that started this thread? How time flies.

I have been having a good little chuckle about rumors of me working in a supermarket or selling double glazing.  Let me put that one to bed straight away; if I ever move away from doing the magazine or working with the BWCA, there will only be one job I ever do, and that is (of course) window cleaning!  I've never worked in a supermarket, never had anything to do with double glazing, (other than cleaning it.)

I read the thread the thread about another window cleaning magazine by WCE and someone else, and I can say this: it takes a great deal of guts and determination for anyone to get off their backside and actually do something rather than simply criticise from the sidelines.  If a couple of members on here have done that then well done to them, and if it helps the window cleaning industry, then thats got to be welcomed. There is a great shortage of people who are willing to put their money where their mouth is, so good for them!

And to you guys, here's my advice:(and I mean it with your best interests sincerely at heart!):

Producing a magazine is more time consuming than you could ever imagine. My opinion is that unless you make enough money from the sales and advertising to cover the costs AND make a profit large enough to cover a decent salary for you both, then seriously guys, don't do it, you will honestly rue the day!

Although you may have done some costings already, here's what you need to do: double or triple them.  There is nothing cheap about producing a magazine. Everything (and I do mean everything) costs 2 or 3 times what you think it will, and takes 3 times as long.

And lastly, and most importantly, forget all about what people say on forums.  You may have had some interest on here, and that's great, (I remember the interest in PWC when I first came up with the idea) but window cleaners in general are simply not prepared to pay for a magazine, no matter how good it is.  I hate to say it, but they just don't care enough about the trade. 

You'd probably be lucky to get 20 subscribers from a forum like this.  As well as the fact that that means a low income from subscriptions, no advertiser is ever going to pay to advertise to a circulation of less than 2,000, so again income is hit.

My opinion is that a window cleaning magazine is only possible here in Britain if it is paid for by some other means than subscriptions and advertising.  That is why PWC is now the magazine of the BWCA, and is free of charge. (And hence, I don't consider a new magazine to be in competition)

Having said that, if you want to do this as a small project that you just want to put a newsletter-type thing together and send out to a small group of interested friends, and you all pitch in on the costs, then that's a good idea that could work. (Except that eventually you'll realise that this forum fills that need better than any publication could!)

Whatever you decide, I genuinely wish you the best.  After all, I have been there, and (unlike anybody else on here) I know exactly what its like.

As for me, well its time for me to disappear from forums again for another three years.  But I'll be at the Cleaning Show next Spring on the BWCA stand if you want to come and say hello.  And there'll be another issue of PWC out before then too.

-Philip
Editor, Professional Window Cleaner Magazine

"The irony of the information age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion"
John Lawton

DASERVICES

Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #69 on: October 20, 2008, 03:26:39 pm »
Philip,

Welcome back. A true word in every sense. Have been trying to do one up here for the SLWCN but keeps on changing.

When are you going to do an article on licensing as per website! ;) ;D

Not to mind we have already signed up for a couple of magazines and more banging on our door.

All the best.

Doug

Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #70 on: October 20, 2008, 08:16:48 pm »
Well that is quite funny, but how were we to know, no one volunteered the info that the mag was still going. Mark Twain said that reports of his death had been exaggerated too.

I was the only one that stuck up for you Phil!!

So, if this magazine is free, how do we go about getting a copy?

Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #71 on: October 20, 2008, 08:21:59 pm »
Well that is quite funny, but how were we to know, no one volunteered the info that the mag was still going. Mark Twain said that reports of his death had been exaggerated too.

I was the only one that stuck up for you Phil!!

So, if this magazine is free, how do we go about getting a copy?

Go to the site, and request to be sent a copy.. ive done it but not recieved anything yet

Tosh

Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #72 on: October 20, 2008, 08:28:47 pm »
Was it really 3 and a half years ago that started this thread? How time flies.

I have been having a good little chuckle about rumors of me working in a supermarket or selling double glazing. 

-Philip

Philip,

Sorry, fella, but I started that rumour and kept it going; I thought it was funny when other members here were regurgitating it and I just couldn't help myself and reinforced the said rubbish!

I could see that you'd often look on this site, so I was hoping for a 'bite' from you! ;D

Anyway, I take it the Cleaning Show is at the Birmingham NEC?  I'll be there; so you can give me a good 'slap' if I'm brave enough to say 'Hello'.

Tosh.

Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #73 on: October 20, 2008, 08:49:25 pm »
I suppose chris, but listening to what Phil said his mag sounds like it's product rather than issue led. And as mentioned earlier reviews of service ceo and it's benefits, or the new scudo van as a wc mount etc don't seem on the radar, as don't many of the hot topic threads on here.

I believe DA makes the point that several mags have run the scotland licence story and it's surrounding issues but not this one. You'd have thought that any industry mag worth it's salt would make that a cover story?


Tosh. It was a good story, aided by someone (not me) saying that as part of the deal and to show equal commitment he had to put his house on the line.Along with the funny comment from Matt about the nature of the contract and the forfeit.The idea that he had lost his house, and was selling double glazing was very neatly rounded. You should jack this game and write a couple of corrie episodes.


Tosh

Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #74 on: October 20, 2008, 08:58:16 pm »
and to show equal commitment he had to put his house on the line.

Actually, I think this part is true.  I remember a post from Craig Mawlam (owner of BWCA) saying this.

Honest.


Tosh

Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #75 on: October 20, 2008, 09:21:47 pm »
And I think Philips post backs up my last post.

...There is a great shortage of people who are willing to put their money where their mouth is, so good for them!

-Philip

idealrob

  • Posts: 666
Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #76 on: October 22, 2008, 11:59:05 pm »
perhaps the people who paid the subscribtion like me and got nothing will get a mag Phillip

Idealrob

Paul Coleman

Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #77 on: October 23, 2008, 05:58:34 am »
Was it really 3 and a half years ago that started this thread? How time flies.

I have been having a good little chuckle about rumors of me working in a supermarket or selling double glazing.  Let me put that one to bed straight away; if I ever move away from doing the magazine or working with the BWCA, there will only be one job I ever do, and that is (of course) window cleaning!  I've never worked in a supermarket, never had anything to do with double glazing, (other than cleaning it.)

I read the thread the thread about another window cleaning magazine by WCE and someone else, and I can say this: it takes a great deal of guts and determination for anyone to get off their backside and actually do something rather than simply criticise from the sidelines.  If a couple of members on here have done that then well done to them, and if it helps the window cleaning industry, then thats got to be welcomed. There is a great shortage of people who are willing to put their money where their mouth is, so good for them!

And to you guys, here's my advice:(and I mean it with your best interests sincerely at heart!):

Producing a magazine is more time consuming than you could ever imagine. My opinion is that unless you make enough money from the sales and advertising to cover the costs AND make a profit large enough to cover a decent salary for you both, then seriously guys, don't do it, you will honestly rue the day!

Although you may have done some costings already, here's what you need to do: double or triple them.  There is nothing cheap about producing a magazine. Everything (and I do mean everything) costs 2 or 3 times what you think it will, and takes 3 times as long.

And lastly, and most importantly, forget all about what people say on forums.  You may have had some interest on here, and that's great, (I remember the interest in PWC when I first came up with the idea) but window cleaners in general are simply not prepared to pay for a magazine, no matter how good it is.  I hate to say it, but they just don't care enough about the trade. 

You'd probably be lucky to get 20 subscribers from a forum like this.  As well as the fact that that means a low income from subscriptions, no advertiser is ever going to pay to advertise to a circulation of less than 2,000, so again income is hit.

My opinion is that a window cleaning magazine is only possible here in Britain if it is paid for by some other means than subscriptions and advertising.  That is why PWC is now the magazine of the BWCA, and is free of charge. (And hence, I don't consider a new magazine to be in competition)

Having said that, if you want to do this as a small project that you just want to put a newsletter-type thing together and send out to a small group of interested friends, and you all pitch in on the costs, then that's a good idea that could work. (Except that eventually you'll realise that this forum fills that need better than any publication could!)

Whatever you decide, I genuinely wish you the best.  After all, I have been there, and (unlike anybody else on here) I know exactly what its like.

As for me, well its time for me to disappear from forums again for another three years.  But I'll be at the Cleaning Show next Spring on the BWCA stand if you want to come and say hello.  And there'll be another issue of PWC out before then too.

-Philip

Philip.
Do you think it could be viable if produced as an online magazine?

Peter Fogwill

  • Posts: 1415
Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #78 on: December 11, 2008, 10:53:00 am »
A good thought too G&M , so can we take it from the know but can't say comments that the publication, or the original concept no longer exists?

I thought the bit about the soul was funny Matt, but the kit is good and the money made is on a par, so it is a little bitter of us to be too critical.

 Two fella's on here had a go and even with lots of support from fellow posters were unable to put together even a mock issue, and managed to put off some potential advertisers before they had even started. So it is a very difficult thing to do.
As for advertisers who did we put off? If you are talking about Peter Fogwill then what actually happened was he said he wouldn't submit his products for review unless I would guarantee that the review   only contained the positive points about the product and that no mention of negative aspects of a product were mentioned. Thats his choice - maybe he lacks confidence in his products I don't know but to be honest I would never want to review a product with these restrictions in place anyway as I feel that would be  doing a dis-service to our readers. We don't want to do hatchet jobs on anyone but if there was a genuine shortcoming then we would like the option to mention it. Look at Alex Gardiner when he hears a bit of negative feedback does he throw his toys out of the pram? No, what he does is he looks at a problem/shortcoming and then tries to come up with improvements/solutions. This is how is should be IMO and thats the kind of people we want to work with, not people who are going to censor us. Anyway back to the magazine. An announcement will be made shortly regarding development news. This is a project that wont be rushed.  Don't write us off yet, I will agree with you about one thing. It's not as easy as you think  ;)       

WCE you said I said the following.

"he said he wouldn't submit his products for review unless I would guarantee that the review   only contained the positive points about the product and that no mention of negative aspects of a product were mentioned."

Could you post a link to where I said that please?  This will give you some practice because no doubt you will get a lot of this, with you being an editor of a magazine.

You hadn't put me off, but you certainly have now, typical of the press,  taking something and twisting it for your own ends.  What utter rubbish.  You can't go about quoting things that are not true, what message are you sending out to your prospective customers?  I know where my free copy will be going.

Peter


chris@c.m.s

  • Posts: 1556
Re: Professional Window Cleaner Magazine - Gone to Press!
« Reply #79 on: December 11, 2008, 11:13:32 am »
Who Dragged this up ::) I just filled the form in Doh  ;D
Sussex by the sea