[Glyn H]

Hi Tennant
At the time of testing the thermopure system was not in existance, the additionial weight and change of layout to the system may have an effect on the tests the results.
When the test was carried out several changes were required to the OTT/Ionic systems frame structure as the first few sledge tests did not  give a good resuilt.

When Renault crash test their Megane (for example) that does not mean that their clio doesnt also require testing because it is smaller and lighter.

[Moderator David@stives]

Some systems need crash testing why would you want to mount a 1 ton tank in a steel cage and then add on filter systems a mile of hose all on the same structure , pushing the weight to nearly a ton and half, when there is absolutely no need, most 2 person operations can get away with a 600 l tank with all the filter system left at home. This would half the weight which would need restraining in an accident.

For me 1.4 tons in the back of a van is overkill when half that would do

[macmac]

Tennent-
Sounds like a desperate man trying to justify a massive over-investment.

Where i come from they would say- You've been had mate, good & proper!

Tony

[alanwilson]

Tennet - no offense matey but this is MY area of expertise, I am an engineer (no not someone who fixes dishwashers - an engineer,a real one).

Ionic Systems tanks are completely generic, your point about if the 1000ltr is safe then the 300ltrmust also be, makes total sense, only if the frames used are the same for the 1000ltr and 300ltr, I suspect that they are not although I could be wrong.  In a head on collision the major points of failure are likely to be the base mountings, the forward face of the frame and the rear floor bolts (as the tank will inevitably try to lift from the rear).  Now lets assume that the tank is fitted correctly, which is through the chassis legs with HTHT (heat treated high tensile) bolts, which are fitted through spreader plates onto the bottom of the chassis leg, the top half of the bolt also needs to be fitted through a spreader plate on the frame - if Ionics have another means of fitting them I would like to hear about it.

Now we have a frame fitted through the chassis legs with spreader plates, the frame has been well engineered to displace load and stress, the frame has been manufactured to standard as well.

Will this one design fit any van - of course not!  It needs to line up with the chassis legs correctly on every van, it wont do this, so how do we overcome this problem?  Answer there is no real way to overcome this other than specific frames for specific vans, no one does this.

Tennet - take a look under your van and tell me if the spreader plates are fitted to the underside of your chassis legs - in all likeliness they aren't.

Tell me, what does FMVS testing actually prove?  Does it prove that the tank will stay in place in a 30mph head on?  What about the increased momentum of my vehicle due to it no longer weighing 2ton but now 3ton - how will the crumple ones perform, what about the passenger compartment cell? 

If I am wrong then I am wrong - I have never inspected a fitted Ionics system, I have only looked at one sitting out.  They look a good system, don't reckon they are worth the money but thats none of my business.

I think I will start designing and manufacturing my own frames, there are a number of key engineering issues that all the manufacturers have missed out on, obviously I'm not going to mention any now.

[Clive McDonald]

Alan
A few good points. I've got another question.

Wouldn't a torsion bar from the top back of the water box/assembly going to a spreader plate on the roof make sence?

[niceandclean]

Just had a look at the underneath of my van as i have an Ionics system. I can see the bottom of the bolt which goes through the chassis, it has a nut tightened up onto a rectangular piece of metal, which i assume is a spreader plate? Then in the van it has the so called thatcham tested clamps over the tank frame.

[Clive McDonald]

The key must be the resrtraining frame. The luggage inside no matter what brand it has on it is merely a weight that needs keeping still. The systems thermselves don't need testing, but the integrety of the restraining frame/mechanism does.

[john tomkins]

Tennet - no offense matey but this is MY area of expertise, I am an engineer (no not someone who fixes dishwashers - an engineer,a real one).

I know every other post you state you are an engineer, so why are you on a window cleaning forum

[Clive McDonald]

I'm a pioneer and I'm here ain't I ?

One bad call like challenger, or the time I got the resonant frequency calcs wrong on that occilating suspension bridge...

[Andrew McCann]

I'm a pioneer and I'm here ain't I ?

One bad call like challenger, or the time I got the resonant frequency calcs wrong on that occilating suspension bridge...

       

LOL   

[alanwilson]

Tomkins - I've been through all this before but here goes again.

I left Engineering principally because of stress, there was also the money factor - I earned good money, however in order to do so I had to work all the overtime going - many times I had no option but to do overtime, work had to be completed on time, no iffs - I couldn't take the stress any longer.  Can you imagine working 100hrs a week, mentally fatiguing and highly stressful - mistakes cost big money, or lives. There's no room for error in Aeronautical engineering, none.

There's plenty of other guys on here who are educated in other disciplines who are window cleaners also - I got into window cleaning through a guy I've known most of my life, he got me started and I enjoyed it - no deadlines, no stress.  I came close to losing my wife over all the stress, she couldn't live with me, thats if I was even home to see her.

I'm proud of my background, I'm, proud of my education, it has taken me many places and many good times but it nearly killed me.

I know I can rabbit on a little about being an engineer - thats just me, but it really gets me going when people come on the forum saying this that and the other when in reality they know nothing about it - I do and so I feel compelled to add my 10pence whenever the need arises. 

If you have a problem with that then you will have to live with it - I'm too old in the tooth to change, nor would I ever want to.

[alanwilson]

I'm a pioneer and I'm here ain't I ?

One bad call like challenger, or the time I got the resonant frequency calcs wrong on that occilating suspension bridge...

you spelt oscillating wrong

challenger was inevitable - typical, American project.

[john tomkins]

Tomkins - I've been through all this before but here goes again.

I left Engineering principally because of stress, there was also the money factor - I earned good money, however in order to do so I had to work all the overtime going - many times I had no option but to do overtime, work had to be completed on time, no iffs - I couldn't take the stress any longer.  Can you imagine working 100hrs a week, mentally fatiguing and highly stressful - mistakes cost big money, or lives. There's no room for error in Aeronautical engineering, none.

There's plenty of other guys on here who are educated in other disciplines who are window cleaners also - I got into window cleaning through a guy I've known most of my life, he got me started and I enjoyed it - no deadlines, no stress.  I came close to losing my wife over all the stress, she couldn't live with me, thats if I was even home to see her.

I'm proud of my background, I'm, proud of my education, it has taken me many places and many good times but it nearly killed me.

I know I can rabbit on a little about being an engineer - thats just me, but it really gets me going when people come on the forum saying this that and the other when in reality they know nothing about it - I do and so I feel compelled to add my 10pence whenever the need arises. 

If you have a problem with that then you will have to live with it - I'm too old in the tooth to change, nor would I ever want to.

Well well Mr Wilson we seen to have hit a raw nerve there :

I like reading these forums and learn quite a lot, but when someone keeps giving it the big " I am" constantly , it grates a little, there is no real need to justify your points of view by keep backing it up with

this is MY area of expertise, I am an engineer (no not someone who fixes dishwashers - an engineer,a real one).

no I don't run an Ionics system - and yes I probably know a lot more about how they work than you (Aeronautical Engineer thanks) so yes I understand quite easily how RO works, how the pumps work etc - its childs play.

I worked in aircraft design many moons ago (I'm an engineer)

I'm also and engineer by trade but not a real one compared to you, I'm just a gas and mechanical one.
Chill out and    we all have our problems

[Clive McDonald]

Challenger wasn't inevitable nor typically american if you mean that in a bad way. They put a man on the moon and achieved manned space flight on a regular basis, culminating in the totally unforseeable challenger disaster.

Tenent may be many things, and you may not agree with his opinions, but I don't think he has ever claimed to be an engineer.He has made comments on the evidence and information available to him.


There aren't many engineering issues involved in this at all. It is about securing a box to a chasis.All of the people who install tanks claim them to be safe- the point of difference is being able to demonstrate this in a practical way.

[mr merson]

Does Tennent  work for Ionics ?

[Clive McDonald]

He does now

(if thats a serious question, no he doesn't.)

[alanwilson]

yeah sorry guys - I know I rabbit on, I can't help it - it was such a big part of my life for years so thats my problem.

Discount - Have you got an American car?