[NWH]

Firstly it`s Tony Jardine and they have fitted mine and i can honestly say that it is fitted in the same place that ionic would fit it and the bolts used are of the same quality the same can be said of there tank frames,the bolts ionic use are not magic ones though after speaking to Ruben you`d think they were,even in the new van that you have if you drive it like an idiot and have an accident you never will know the outcome until it happens.

[TennetClean]

Sorry Tony Jardine, yes thats the fella

NWH, mate have you seen the crash test videos? it is not the bolts that fail it is the mounting brackets, the van floor and the steel frame itself.

I know it aint magic, but it their frames ARE crash tested and I had a long talk with Jason at ionics about it and how their frames did fail first but they had to rework them.

Its also not about where you fit the system though sure this is important for weight etc, but its the way its attached to the van, the clamps that hold it in place and the tank frame.  from what I understand it is a very complicated science and thats why the only way to know is to do a test.  Doesnt matter how sturdy it may look.

[windowwashers]

from my own perspective as to where to go next when we start selling fitted systems.

Alex I find that comment very interesting.

I will be especially interested to see how you handle the delicate subject of safety, from what I understand you are the type of person who places a high value on life and the safety of others.  What I mean is, to give an example, if you were to sell a car to someone that you knew had faulty brakes and they died as a result then the blood would be on your hands.  Some may disagree with that assumption, but not me and I suspect not you either.

In my mind the same situation is true of systems, and this very seriously influenced my decision to go with a crash-tested system. I was recently very suprised to hear that the likes of tim jardine of essentially pure is supposedly someone like yourself and others on here who hold life valuable, yet are happily installing systems which are potentially lethal (I have personally seen one, and it is plainly highly unsafe).

Personally I think unless you actually crash-test your stuff you just cannot claim to be safe and I cannot help but think it is the utmost hypocrisy for anyone who claims to hold life valuable to be supplying untested stuff, and at the same time rubbishing ionics for doing the testing and safeguarding peoples lives.

I dont expect everyone to agree with me on this point, and thats ok, but I do think there are plenty on here who will understand exactly what I am talking about.

I fully understand what you are saying in your post.

I have to say a few things ionics crash test there system as far as I am aware at 30mph (full and what weight I do not know do you?)

crash test is Ionics selling tool, and I spoke to Criag from ionics the owner thats taken a back seat and you would be shocked what he said to me, I am not posting it on here. it is nothing to do with safety of there systems I thought I better add that
as it could viewed in a bad light, nothing said was bad in anyway more very good that many miss and are still missing

Crash at 30 mph and 50 is miles apart nmow if ionic did a test at 70mph with a full tank sat 800l it would stand up what they say IMO, to me it is like the self cleaning glass (does it work, well I have loads of customers asking me to clean them so you deside on that).

Am I knocking ionics no I am not there sytems are smart expensive but smart am I jealous of the system, not at all if I really wanted one and thought I would make more money from one It would be on order monday morning.



I have seen mant dodgy systems and quite a few on a site (no names, but say to the owner of site he needed a disclaimer to cover hes backside hopefully I listened.

Safety is key in my life come to close to dying to many times.

so to end untested stuff maybe, tested at 40,50,60 70 mph no compaines are that I know of and with a full load none as I know at 1mph or more.

Ian

[Glyn H]

Tank safety
If I could work out how to post photographs I would be able to post photos of two terrable crashes one a head on collision on a dual carrageway where one vehicle comming in the opposite direction hit an oil patch and hit a vehicle we had supplied with an 800 litre tank fitted it was early in the morning and the van had three ocupants and a full tank of water. The head on collision wrote off both vehicles involved thankfully only minor injuries occured. The insurers inspectors were amazed that the tank did not move.

The second major accident occured in London at 5.30 in the morning when the driver of a car had fallen asleep and plowed into the side of a van we had built with a 650 litre tank of water, the rear axle of the van was smashed completly off of the vehicle, The van driver wasnt injured, unfortunatly the car catapulted off the van and demolished a shop front ending up inside the shop, the driver recieved only minor injuries due to his sleepiness. Once again the underwritter noted in his report the stability of the tank and its non movement.
Not a formal crash test I know but reassuring for us.

[NWH]

Sorry Tony Jardine, yes thats the fella

NWH, mate have you seen the crash test videos? it is not the bolts that fail it is the mounting brackets, the van floor and the steel frame itself.

I know it aint magic, but it their frames ARE crash tested and I had a long talk with Jason at ionics about it and how their frames did fail first but they had to rework them.

Its also not about where you fit the system though sure this is important for weight etc, but its the way its attached to the van, the clamps that hold it in place and the tank frame.  from what I understand it is a very complicated science and thats why the only way to know is to do a test.  Doesnt matter how sturdy it may look.

If you are happy that`s all that counts Tennant,you have a Rolls Royce product that by the sounds of it suits all your needs.Will it get you more work absolutley not will it make you more keen to get to work i would say it will,lets not get away from the basics here getting water up a pole.A few months  ago i nearly got exactly the same setup as you but when thinking about it i couldn`t see how it was going to earn me more money.

[Kevin R]

My system was fitted by Varitech. The systems they sell are enclosed in a stainless steel frame.

They send your van to a professional coach builder to be fitted. My system has 12 big stainless steel bolts all which pass though the chassis.

I am no doubt that in an accident my system etc will hold up as good as the ionics one.

Like NWH said ionics are not selling Magic bolts,  but lets face it they are excellent sales people. who know the business they are in.

I have seen some terribly badly fitted systems in my time. I think its good that Ionics have set a standard which hopefully all manufactures / suppliers will eventually follow.

Lets face it the main suppliers are switched on a tend to fit systems properly its some of the DIY systems I worry about.

TennentClean its a lovely looking system, I hope it does you proud - good luck  
 

[windowwashers]

Tank safety
If I could work out how to post photographs I would be able to post photos of two terrable crashes one a head on collision on a dual carrageway where one vehicle comming in the opposite direction hit an oil patch and hit a vehicle we had supplied with an 800 litre tank fitted it was early in the morning and the van had three ocupants and a full tank of water. The head on collision wrote off both vehicles involved thankfully only minor injuries occured. The insurers inspectors were amazed that the tank did not move.

The second major accident occured in London at 5.30 in the morning when the driver of a car had fallen asleep and plowed into the side of a van we had built with a 650 litre tank of water, the rear axle of the van was smashed completly off of the vehicle, The van driver wasnt injured, unfortunatly the car catapulted off the van and demolished a shop front ending up inside the shop, the driver recieved only minor injuries due to his sleepiness. Once again the underwritter noted in his report the stability of the tank and its non movement.
Not a formal crash test I know but reassuring for us.

Glyn,

where you type in a reply, click additional option a box will appear, like on browse find pc on pc and click it, clkick ok/attach

you can do this twice.

Ian

[NWH]

Why do ionics plug the saftey aspect of things because it sells,Tennant and the views he`s expressing are proof that it sells.The market is getting saturated with suppliers and joe bloggs fitting them in there sheds and they know this and are using it to there advantage you only have to flick through the last magazine to see this,they did the same with poles and now there doing it with there systems.In some ways the way the information is put across it`s like unless you buy from us it won`t be safe,when there pole sales level out there will be another big plug for the poles that they supply and how that if you use 1 of there`s you won`t get neck ache or back ache,a business that size has to have good marketing to survive and they have it,shame they don`t ring you back when things go wrong or so i`ve heard.

[Glyn H]

Thanks Ian
This one was the side on hit, as you can see the wheel has been burst and the rim damaged. The rear axle is actually broken from its fixings and latter fell off when attempt was made to move it.
The photo with the door open was taken on extreme wide angle lens to get whole vehicle in which is why its distorted.

[Kevin R]

Well it looks like your system has passed a real life crash test 

[TennetClean]

NWH I hear what you are saying and of course there is an advantage there to be had, but I dont think you can just completely discard the whole safety issue because it helps ionics market a product.

Look at how car companies like volvo go on about their safety.  Yes they do it for marketing reasons but it doesnt make the things they say wrong, what they are saying is still true.  If they made a car that got good marks for safety of course they're gonna shout about it, but does that mean that you can ignore the safety points because you suspect they are selling cars on the basis of it?  Absolutely not.

So yes sure they use it for marketing, and if I was them so would I, but so what?  It doesnt mean they're lying, it doesnt mean that theres no danger with untested systems, they already proved that there is.

All I am saying is that in my opinion it is not possible to claim that somethings safe unless you are able to prove it, and I think that for WFP systems the only way to be sure is to do the testing.  And if you cant be sure that what your selling is safe (by testing it) then IMO it is hypocritical to say you hold life valuable, just like selling a car that has suspect brakes.

[Glyn H]

Second crash

When you see both vehicles its unbeliviable that no injuries occured. God was obviously looking after the drivers and passangers that day
This is one of Paul Smiths  Powerclenes vehicles

[Elginn]

Glad to know everyone is OK, did Paul have a large tank in the back? if so did it stay in one place or shift a little?

[Glyn H]

I describe the crash in an earlier post. It had a full up 800 litre tank in the back and it didnt shift even though the floor actually buckled.

[Glyn H]

The problem with any form of crash testing is it is only relevant to the vehicle the test is carried out on. So a different vehicle will react in a different manner therefore a crash test would need to be carried out on each and every make and model of vehicle to ensure the same results, I guess this is fairly obvious, that being said I applaud Ionics for carrying out the tests they did as it certainly put pressure on some to the importance of correct fitting.

[alanwilson]

good point glyn - tank frames are generic, they are not designed for a specific van but are designed to go into various models of vans. 

as for the videos of crash testing - it is pretty clear that the competitors system wasn't actually bolted down onto the van.

[Glyn H]

Another point is that the test would need to be carried out on all sizes of tanks to once again ensure uniform results.
 Any variation to design or additional equipment would require a fresh test to once again ensure the same result.
At £20,000 + per test it is financially impossible for what is in real terms a small industry.
If you add all the annual turnovers of wfp manufacturers together its unlikly to be more than 6 or 7 million a year, compaired to most industries this is minute.
For example  an average sized builders merchants in a town ( not the likes of a B&Q) or a couple of branches of a Hire shop chain will easily do this amount.

[TennetClean]

nah i'm afraid i dont agree with that glyn, I've heard suppliers say that line before and it is the biggest cop-out ever.  So your solution is...to do nothing then?  To rely on the fact that some guy had a crash and it seemed to be ok?

If you crash your van head on into a solid wall, the strains that pull on the system are gonna basically the same no matter what the make of van.  A head on crash is a head on crash.

And as for the tank sizes, I you couldnt test a 300 litre tank and say we'll use the same design for a 1000 litre and it will be ok.  BUT, you could do it the other way around.  What I mean is if you tested a 1,000 litre system and it was all ok, I think it would be ok to say right, we'll use the same design, clamps, and install procedure and steel and everything as we did for the 1,000 but we'll only use a 600 or 300 litre tank.  To me that makes sense.  If it held up for the bigger system, it will of course logically be ok for a smaller system.

No offense but both of those arguments are what people say when they basically have no argument at all.  I had a very close look at all the systems and things by various suppliers before i bought mine, and what I saw is that nearly everyone is claiming some kind of safety, but always based on just nothing really, but it seems to me that they feel they have to say something. 

For example : "installed by professionals" means nothing does it lol.  "installed to ministry of transport standards" ministry of transport doesnt even exist anymore.  "installed to the highest specifications" lol meaningless.  "Professional factory fitted" Lol does the fact it was done in a factory make it safe eh?  It shows that they are aware of the danger but are doing basically nothing about it except coming up with good sounding phrases, probably as you said because its too expensive.

I notice that essentially pure even sell their systems for the customer to fit himself!  LOL Totally irressponsible that is in my opinion.  Can you do that, knowing the risks involved and still claim to hold life as valuable?  Personally, I dont think so.

[Alex Gardiner]

from my own perspective as to where to go next when we start selling fitted systems.

Alex I find that comment very interesting.

I will be especially interested to see how you handle the delicate subject of safety, from what I understand you are the type of person who places a high value on life and the safety of others.  What I mean is, to give an example, if you were to sell a car to someone that you knew had faulty brakes and they died as a result then the blood would be on your hands.  Some may disagree with that assumption, but not me and I suspect not you either.

In my mind the same situation is true of systems, and this very seriously influenced my decision to go with a crash-tested system. I was recently very suprised to hear that the likes of tim jardine of essentially pure is supposedly someone like yourself and others on here who hold life valuable, yet are happily installing systems which are potentially lethal (I have personally seen one, and it is plainly highly unsafe).

Personally I think unless you actually crash-test your stuff you just cannot claim to be safe and I cannot help but think it is the utmost hypocrisy for anyone who claims to hold life valuable to be supplying untested stuff, and at the same time rubbishing ionics for doing the testing and safeguarding peoples lives.

I dont expect everyone to agree with me on this point, and thats ok, but I do think there are plenty on here who will understand exactly what I am talking about.

Hi TennentClean

Just to clarify we do not sell fitted systems and we do not sell systems for people to fit themselves.  We do not even sell complete DIY systems.  As a company we do value life highly, hence the promotion of WFP (which statistically has saved lives in Britain already).  If we decide to go ahead with a fitted system project, the issue of safety will be of paramount importance.

I applaud Ionics crash testing, however it is dependent on how their system is fitted and recently I have spoken to two of their clients locally whose Ionics fitted systems have been fitted in such a way that they would have potentially caused a major accident had it not been for an MOT station noticing the lethal fitment.  The fault was put right and several expensive poles were provided as compensation.  It just shows in life that the detail is as important as the overall idea.

[Pj]

"The devil is in the detail"