[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

Woolsafe obviously work with a fairly narrow set of criteria concerning suitability of cleaning chemicals for wool and it is unlikely that a stricter set could be enforced.

Agnes was making the point about alkalinity being more important than pH, this is something we discussed a couple of years ago.

I did question whether Paul got the wrong result but thought this unlikely with his experience.

First thing is to cross check the cleaning solution's pH.

Cheers

Doug

[Ian Gourlay]

As a trained carpet inspector, I have learnt that you cannot make a diagnosis from afar. You really don't know until your investigations have been completed, so it is important not to pre-judge.

Having said that, my first thought was as brought up by Len, has the pH meter been recalibrated recently, both for neutral and acid or alkali? Has the pH of the carpet been tested? Is the brown appearance due to the product(s), primary or secondary backing or adhesives?  My gut feeling is that the problem is more likely to be due to inappropriate technique/overwetting rather than being product related, but there I go pre-judging again

Safe and happy cleaning
Ken

Ken I have never seen any carpet inspector training courses in this country.

How do you qualify to be Inspector  Wainwright

[*paul_moss]

Doug I di the test with a divining rod so it should not be far out .

I am waiting for the answer back from Rug doctor ( i think its a batch that has slipped through), shall keep you informed.

[Ken Wainwright]

Ian

I did my Carpet Inspectors training with Woolsafe. The tutor was Dr Eric Brown.

After I qualified there were no local areas available to me, the closest being south of Oxford. So I decided to be independent and offer my services to local contacts only.

If you visit woolsafe.org you'll see a little about the Woolsafe Carpet Inspectors programme. Even if you don't do inspection work, the course is beneficial to us as cleaners.  I don't know if the training courses are still running, if not, why not approach Eric directly and see if he's running any more in the future. Maybe if there was enough interest from other CCer's..............


James123

Whilst I agree that over application of many retail products cause us problems, these retail products tend to have a lightening effect on the surrounding carpet and very rarely blackening. However, other home products such as washing up liquid and other stickily residual household formulations can promote resoiling and leave the soiling you mention.

I have stated this before, it's worth repeating and I know there'll be a barage of abuse, but the reality is the truth.  I have on many occasions been requested by the UK carpet manufacturing industry to demonstrate on their behalf at consumer shows how best to care for carpets. I demonstrate correct vacuuming and correct spot removal techniques. I ALWAYS use generally available branded spotters, typically 1001 Trouble Shooter (Woolsafe Approved) and I've NEVER had any problems. I treat spilt tea and coffee on a woolblend beige twist.  My tools are a terry towel, paper towel, a teaspoon, 1001 and a bottle of water.  The problem is NOT the product, but always the user, typically applying far too much product and rubbing/scrubbing too hard. Basically, they panic

SAFE and happy cleaning
Ken

[Neil Grainger]

Ken you are an expert but in the hands of a consumer this stuff is dangerous to carpets, so meaning it should not be wool safe approved.

For me this is about money and not about a product that is any good at stain removal. I feel woolsafe are looking at the money and not the products ability in the hands of the consumer.  Its good in our hands but its not made for us.

[Gerry Styles]

Looked at a lounge carpet today, blue colour, wool. Customer said kids had spilled drink on it, she had tried to clean it but it had gone brown. I asked what she had used. It was a combination of vanish then 1001. closer inspection when I pulled a loose fibre from the stained area the dye was totally stripped from the fibre

Verdict - no point in trying to clean it

[Ken Wainwright]

Neil

It's flattering that you regard me as an expert, but yes, I know what you mean.

My point is that these products work. They have instructions on the bottle which, incidentally, I feel could be improved. Many choose to ignore them. So,  my point again is that the products work within the limitations of a GP spotter, it's the execution that's at fault.

And this problem of not reading the labels isn't restricted to Joe and Josephine Bloggs. How many so called professional carpet cleaners use the Glug Glug method of dilution? How many of us buy a new electronic gadget or B&Q Flatpack and don't read the use and assembly instructions : It's a human failing that the manufacturers and others have little or no control over.

Safe and happy spotting
Ken

[Robert Watson]

Thats right Ken.
When all else fails, read the instructions. 

[Mike Osbourne]

Warning

'Do not look down truckmount hose while in operation' - -

[Robert Watson]

Ha Ha Ha, Nice one Mike.

[Len Gribble]

Ágnes

UK manufactures normally give a use by date for example made today 04-07-08 this would translate to be 04-07-09 depending on life expediency so a few that more than two should be on it.

For once I’m on your side I know you can’t police the sheds (trade name for the d.i.y outlets)

Come out with me for the day

Ken

I read all instructing some I understand some I don’t Japanese via German then English

Mike

Trip hazarded mines in yellow.

Len

[lands]

As always Len, your posts project a clarity that can only be compared to the response of a politician having been asked a difficult question.

You around on Tuesday as I have to go to Ashbys around lunchime. Air movers etc

[John Kelly]

When we used to do a lot of insurance stain work you only got pennies if you couldn't remove the stain. It got to the point that on our initial contact with the customer we asked if they had tried to remove the stain and if they had, what with. Answer was always Vanish or 1001. We therefore did not travel to the job and took details of the carpet etc (where practical) for replacement.
Trouble was a lot of them denied trying and when you got there, sometimes a 40 mile drive you were confronted with a bleached area. Could have strangled half of them and was very hard to be polite.
Point is nearly every job we seen where this rubbish had been used the carpet was damaged beyond repair. If something is obviously not going to be used as per instructions it shouldn't be on the market.

[Len Gribble]

Pete

Only stating the obvious perhaps he was looking at the machine, hate to see a man cry. As it happens wife is taking me to the shed tomorrow, normally I shear away but I’m up for it.

Not sure about Tuesday waiting a phone call probably get it tomorrow when I’m at church  don’t you just love commercial give me a call before stetting out.

John

Though were the days.

Len

[The WoolSafe Organisation]

To James123:
I am sorry I was not specific about “the residue” of 1001 TroubleShooter. It is not what you describe as “the big black stain foaming up as soon as you touch it” – if it was, it certainly would not have our approval!
You are right we would not be doing our job properly if any of the WoolSafe approved products had that kind of a sticky residue overloaded with surfactants. We test for that and none of the 1001 products (Shampoo, 3-in-1 cleaner or the carpet fresheners) leave that kind of residue. The only complaint we ever had is with TroubleShooter, which has a polymer component, which if left in the carpet can dry to a hard residue.
The problem with this is that it soils less then the surrounding area, so after a while it can show up like a lighter spot. I cannot get into a debate with you about caret cleaning and how to correct what the public spoilt, as you are the one doing it day in day out. That is why we recommend professional cleaning to anyone asking for our advice. But not everyone is prepared to do that, so there is a demand for DIY products. Your very remark about the nightmares you meet justifies the work we do in testing and certifying products that are safe if used correctly. We know that our work encourages manufacturers to improve their products and aim to produce ones anybody can use without creating problems.
Ágnes

[*paul_moss]

I spoke to Agnes to day about this very same thing. Must say she is a very professional and positive lady with a passion for the industry very similar to ours. ( Agnes thanks for your time today)

The biggest thing here is customer intervention when it comes to stain removal and time and time again the customer either pannics when a spillage/accident occurs or just blatently glugs lots of concentrate into the carpet and hopes for a miracle.
The only thing we can do as Professionals is continue to educate our customers again and again, but it would be nice if the chemical companies did not market the easy stain removal approach so much on tv and alike so customers think it is a magic liquid, also they should label and explian stain removal far better on the product label.

[lands]

I agree,

Went to that wine stain today and actually got most of the wine but the state of the carpet from the vanish they had chucked at it was shocking. They have chucked the vanish away and I have left them with a safer alternative and with the right instructions.

Pete

[*paul_moss]

I agree,

Went to that wine stain today and actually got most of the wine but the state of the carpet from the vanish they had chucked at it was shocking. They have chucked the vanish away and I have left them with a safer alternative and with the right instructions.
Pete

A stanley knife and a pot of glue 

[The WoolSafe Organisation]

Why does everyone talk about Vanish and 1001 together all the time, as if they were the same?!?
They are separate brands made by different manufacturers in different countries and they have very different properties. It is incorrect to create an association between them. Vanish itself has many varieties, none of the present formulations are WoolSafe approved. Some are far too strongly alkaline, some have other problems. (Also, there are a countless number of Vanish laundry products, any of them could have been used by the customer reaching for the “magic” pink bottle!)
Most of the 1001 range is WoolSafe approved, which means they are safe if used correctly.
This is the message you should give the customer (apart from the obvious: the safest of all is YOU, the professional). Anything else is not helpful and if you tell them they cannot use anything, they will not listen. The message is telling them to look for the WoolSafe Mark on the bottle and/or to look at our website for the most up to date list. There they will find some other products they can try, like Carpet Power, Host, Envirodri…

Ágnes

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Agnes

We appreciate your contribution.

Those of us who link Vanish and 1001  really mean all these types of products , which are no doubt effective and relatively safe when used under lab/test conditions but in practice cause all manner of problems.

Vanish primarily bleaching/lightening and 1001 rapid resoiling.

I always advise customers to use the minimum amount of any of these chemicals and to try and remove as much as possible of the residual cleaner.

Cheers

Doug