[spencer davies]

You can put a monkey in a suit.......but he is still a monkey

Owning any piece of equipment won't produce good results if the operator has poor training and/or attitude, whether he is using a TM, portable,DF, vax even.

S

[john rees]

Hi All,
         I did a job last saturday for a builder who had made a mess on a beige hsl carpet while replacing an old lathe and plaster ceiling, I didn't realise until I got there that I was the 4th cleaner to attempt the job, He called me because an industrial cleaning company gave him my number! and he was in a panic because the customer was withholding payment until it was cleaned or she wanted a replacement!! It took us an hour to vac all the old black plaster out and managed to fill the bag which had supposed to have been cleaned 3 times with portables before we even got there. It came up like new again(even the water mark left by cleaner number 3 who had a leak from his machine) and we had a tenner tip from the builder and a tenner from the housholder! I look at buying a truckmount as just a natural progression, If you are good at your job with a portable you will soon not be able to cope with the volume of work and look at more efficient ways of working and the way to go is truckmounted, That way you can either earn double the money or work half the time for the same money as a portable.

              All the best
                               John

[Andy Foster]

Hi again

Interesting points and I understand that it may be quicker with a truck mount and that would lead to higher income or more time off.
In this instance it took an hour to vac and half an hour to set up the customer's email account on hotmail (don't quite know how that happened but hey, can't see a damsel in distress).

As a point of note, she said that the guy normally does it for £130 and that he is there nearly all day so can't see how it would be quicker with a TM as he didn't normally vac either.

I think it is very much horses for courses and if I get to the point where I physically can't handle any more work then I'll go and buy myself...






another porty and hire some help... have you seen how much it costs to run a TM!!!
   

Cheers

Andy

[John Kelly]

Mark, 13hp is 198 kilos.

[carpet guy]

Good post Andy, the silence is deafening. One thing that keeps puzzling me, is why anyone and I know you're not alone would use a pile brush to aggitate prespray.

I always got excellent results from the CFR system, using One Step, aggitated with the Klanz machine

[Andy Foster]

Hi carpet guy

My post was not intended as a conversation stopper, I have the greatest of respect for people like Dave and have learned a great deal from them, I just don't get the attraction of a massive grunt of a machine which can cost thousands... you have to clean an awful lot of extra carpets to make up the cost of the machine.  They do cost a lot to run too, but like I say, horses for courses.

I don't usually agitate with a pile brush to answer your question, I normally use a sebo duo but with M-Power, it is not necessary to aggitate, I simply brush the solution in and allow to dwell... less work and I have to say, I am quite impressed with it (used to use, and sometimes still do use one-step).

Cheers

Andy

[kinder clean]

It sounds like some truck mount owners are a little behind on the latest portables.

I own a powrflite pfx1350 which has up to 500psi on tap, it has 2 very powerful vac motors that are more than adequate to remove most of the water being put down and it heats the water very well, its also well insulated and quiet in operation ~  in my opinion if you feel you need more umph than that, maybe you don't like to make more than 1 pass over with the wand. 

Yes there is the time factor of loading and unloading, but that might account for an extra 20 minutes on each job.
Used with something like a wonderwand I don't think side by side a truck mount would have any better result, not in cleaning, or drying times required.

As for impressing the cusomer, I don't think the average Joe would know what a truck mount was, if anything, to Joe public I would say a big nosiy truck throwing DSL fumes out would to the average person look more antiquated than a slick modern porty. 

Its how you present your business, yourself and your marketing strategies that count.

How about the fumes issue from truckmounts, did anyone else read the poison gases issue in the recent edition of the NCCA magazine.

Maybe it's the age old story, you know what women say about the guy with the big red sports car whose eager to tell everyone how much money he earns ~ I think you know what I'm saying!!  I'll stick with my mini.

Paul

[mark_roberts]

I cant be bothered to read all the posts on this thread but Dave Liahona has made the point.  You make more money per man hour with a TM.  Every Tm user started with a portable so they know what their talking about.  Most portable owners have never used a Tm for longer than 30mins (usually at a demo).

We're not talking about the level of clean as thats down to the operator but we're talking money in the pocket at the end of the day.  Like most things seeing is believing so call your local professional TM operator and spend the day with him.  Thats what i did and I thought i was making money before with a portable.

Mark

[Luc]

I think that some good points have been made in this topic, but i agree with what spencer davis says. Having a TM dose not mean i will do a better job than that me using a portable will mean i will do a s**t job.
I changed over to TM  3 years ago as my workload increased and it was easier for me to work with a tm. Yes i do perfer using the TM as it it definatly quicker and easier for me to use. I still habe 3 portable, 2 being 400psi ninjas and 1 being 200psi. I still use the ninja 2-4 times a week for flats and retirement complexes and i still do the same job as i would have with the Tm, it just may take a lil bit longer.
Funny thing with the customers is that some dont give a toss what i use, but this week for example, a lady phoned me up yesterday and said that i cleaned her carpet a year ago (with the tm) and asked if i could use my smaller machine (the portalbe). i asked why and she said  becuase she wanted to have the doors and window shut   and becuase she liked to see the dirty water.
Whereas today i done a really old customer (checked database and it was 6 years since i was last there) and she thought the TM was the mutts nutts. she was saying how good it was i brought my own water and how quick it was. I think as long as the customer is happy and ive known that i have done a good job, be it with the portable or Tm, thats all that matters to me (and the money of course   )

[richie]

Paul,

I sat here shaking my head when reading your post.  I think you will find that many TM users are up to date with most CC extraction machines & other systems.  Your Powerflite may have a 500psi water pump anr 2 (as you put it) very powerful vac motors but this is nothing compared to even a entry level TM.  When looking at water pressure of a extraction machine you should also look at the GPM of it.  A TM set at 200psi will be stronger than any portable set at 500psi.  Your 2 vac motors can only draw x amount of powwer from a 13amp fuse,  a TM has JUST 1 vac BLOWER that would buckle the casing of your portable.  IEven when using a TM i often may use more than 1  cleaning pass.  If you worked side by side with a TM going the same speed as the TM i guareentee that the carpet cleaned by the TM will be CLEANER,  DRIER & would look better.  Portables can do a good job but it will be slower than a TM.  I have used both systems in the past 2 weeks.  I got top results with the Porty but it was harder than using the TM.  One customer voiced concern as to why i was cleaning her carpet with a little machine instead of the big one in the van.  I explained the TM was in use elsewhere but not to worry as i would still do a great job.  The job took near an hour longer and although i did dry passes i couldnt get it as dry as i usually do with the TM.  I have NEVER had a customer voice concerns of the TM exhaust gases.  REMEMBER.....portys use electricity.   HOW IS ELECTRICITY MADE?  Fossil fules.....   The cost of running a TM is minimal.  Anyone that cannot afford to run a TM is obviously one of the cheap cowboys cleaning carpets for a laugh.  The cost really is minimal when you look at the price you SHOULD be charging customers.

Richie.

[Andy Foster]

"I cant be bothered to read all the posts on this thread but Dave Liahona has made the point.  You make more money per man hour with a TM.  Every Tm user started with a portable so they know what their talking about.  Most portable owners have never used a Tm for longer than 30mins (usually at a demo).

We're not talking about the level of clean as thats down to the operator but we're talking money in the pocket at the end of the day.  Like most things seeing is believing so call your local professional TM operator and spend the day with him.  Thats what i did and I thought i was making money before with a portable."


Dave has indeed made some good points (as have other on here if you could be bothered to read the posts) and it is indisputable that you can turn over more in a day using a truckmount than with a portable.  The question I have really is down to how much of the 'extra' work you can fit in you need to do before you have made up the extra money it has cost to buy the machine in the first place.

Then there are the running costs of a truckmount, let alone the diesel in the van to pull it around, you have to admit that these costs are a lot higher than if you were running a porty.

If your business can stand the extra initial costs of going TM and you are prepared for the additional running costs then indeed, why not, but then again... why? I can buy a van, a decent portable, hoses, wands and all the trimmings for the price of a truckmount without the hoses etc and a van to drag it around in.

Personally speaking, my business does not lend itself to a TM as I need to be able to use the van for other things, however, if and when there is a full time need for the carpet cleaning, it would have to be a pretty darn good deal to get me to go TM.

Despite what you may think, I am not anti-TM, if I had the need and spare cash I would consider it, but it does get a bit boring listening to the same old story about how 'I went TM and never looked back'.  If you look at it objectively, no-one who has spent a few grand on a machine is likely to admit they made a mistake are they?

Anyway, as I have said time and again, its whatever suits the individual.  Personally, I am making a decent chunk of my business from a £2k setup (second hand at that and I charge more than some of the TMs around here) and a dose of good customer service.

I honestly don't wish to offend anyone by the comments I have made and apologise unreservedly if that has happened, just pay me the same courtesy if its not too much trouble.

Andy

[spencer davies]

Paul,

I have owned the best portables on the market, they simply can't be compared to our Hydramaster, we still own two 500 psi portables for difficult to access jobs, good machines, but don't believe the Hype.


S

[Dave_Lee]

The cost of a TM like any other piece of equipment is a business cost, and is tax deductable. I had my first entry level TM for 5 years and it cost me about £300 in spares in that time. I ran top end portables for 23 years before that, and on average I had to replace the pump evry 6 - 9 months and each vac motor every 12 months. So that was about £300 plus every year. So at 5 years I would have spent £1500 plus on parts for my portables, plus the downtime etc. I sold my last 2 year old portable for £800. I sold my TM for over £2,000, plus I saved around £4,400 in Tax. You see the point I am getting at. The initial cost may seem a lot, but it doesnt cost you anywhere near that in the end, and the latest TMs have the LPG option.
Dave.

[carpet guy]

Ritchie

Go and play with the buses......................you are insulting many highly regarded and long proven businessmen by your comments.

There are t/m users cleaning for as little as £20 a room
There are portable users charging as much as £100 a room
There are cowboys at every pricing level
There are acknowledged industry experts who use portables

The definition of a cowboy is according to individual perception, mine happens to be associated with overcharging and not providing value.

If it comes down to productivety, it's been well documented that other methods give higher productivety than HWE

[richie]

I think you must have got on the WRONG BUS mate,  If you had read the post you will have realised that i was NOT insulting or intending to insult any highly regarded, long proven businessman.  I was merely trying to get across the FACT the running a TM is not a thing that should cause concern if you are charging a FAIR price for your services.  I could have easily attempted to insult but that was not my intention i thought my post was clear....obviously not to all.

Richie.

[liahona]

I cant remember where I got this from but obviously it isnt mine.  But for the numpties who think a portable is even close to a truckmount in performance here is the "data" on one and the other.   This isnt aimed at the results just the technical side of the debate.

Portable Power  V  Truckmount Power.

We often get asked whatthe difference is between a Truckmount and a portable really are and why so many Truckmount users say that they would never return to regularly using a portable unit.  The answer is quite simple  POWER.  In the following example I shall compare what is theoretically possible here in the UK from a standard ring main and the smallest entry level Truckmount that is supplied by Hyrdramaster Ltd    The Spitfire 3.2

So that we can directrly compare one with the other we shall need to work in the same power units for which we will use kilowatts (kw)

Portable Unit

Here in the UK portable electric units are plugged directly into a mains electricity outlet, each plug will have a maximum rating of 13 amps.  Each socket will probably form part of a 'ring main' which in turn will be connected to the consumer unit (fuse board) where it will be protected by a 30 Amp fuse or a 32 Amp circuit breaker.

In the interest of fairness I shall work to the theoretical maximum, using Ohm's law and neglecting efficiency and other minor losses for simplicity.

Standard UK power supply is 240 v or there abouts.

Maximum standard plug top rating is 13 Amps.

From Ohm's law Power = Voltage x Amperage.

= 240 x 13

= 3120 Watts (3.12kw)

Total Power so far used from the ring main equals 2 x 13 = 26 Amps, which leaves us an available 6 Amps.  The last 6 Amps gives us in theory another 1440 W (1.44kw)  240 x 6.

This gives us a TOTAL THEORETICAL  amount of electrical power available to run vac. systems, heating systems and pumping systems of

2 x 3.12 Kw + 1.44 Kw = 7.68 Kw.

Truckmount    Hydramaster Spitfire 3.2

To work out the equivalent amount of electrical power that Truckmounts generate to heat it's water we need to use Newtons law of heating and cooling as follows.  A Spitfire 3.2 will heat water from 20 Degrees C to 90 Degrees C at a rate of 5.6 litres per minute (flow through a standard 04 jet at 300 p.s.i.)

Newton's law of heating and cooling concludes the following:

Energy (J) = heat capacity of item *mass of item* temperature change.

Heat Capacity of water = 4200J per Kg

Mass = 5.6 litres = 5.6 Kg

Temperature change = temperature rise = 70 degrees C

Energy (J)   = 4200 * 5.6 * 70   = 1646400 J per minute

Using a simply conversion of 360000 J per minute = 1Kw Hour

We end up with a final figue of 27.44 Kw (this is just water heating power!!)

To get the total equivalent electrical power figure for the Spitfire 3.2 we also need to take into account the engines power.  This unit uses a 16 horse power petrol engine which equates to 11.9 Kw.

So the total equivalent power that a Spitfire 3.2 generates is a whopping

27.44 Kw+ 11.9 Kw = 39.32Kw

Conclusion

We have shown a clear and direct comparison between the theoretical maximum amount of power available to a portable on a standard electrical supply in the UK and the smallest Truckmount that Hydramaster produce.  I underline "theoretical maximum" since in the real world this would be bordering on being dangerous and would most probably be unworkable and may require more than two plugs to operate safely.

A more realistic figure for the amount of safe usable power available to a portable unit would closer to 6.2 Kw running from two plugs, which means that even the smallest Truckmount available from Hydramaster is over six times more powerful than the most powerful twin plug portable unit.

Also consider the fact that from the available 6.2 Kw to the portable unit we need to split this power three ways in an attempt to produce as much vacuum as possible, as much heat as possible and as much water pressure as possible.  On the other hand the Spifire 3.2 has 11.9Kw availible just to power the vacuum system and water pressure system.  Its also worth noting that a portable system is always virtually operating at its maximum unlike a Spifire 3.2 which only operates at about 80% of its capacity.  I.E. the engine and blower are rated at 3600 rpm but only run at 3000 rpm, thus creating long term reliability...... If you start looking at the bigger nachines within the Hydramaster range then YES they are 20 times more powerful as a portable.


Best, Dave.

P.S.  It has been mentioned about a truckmounts exhaust.  What do you think, portables dont exhaust??

They do of course and worse than any truckmount they exhaust inside the clients house, reducing air quality to, well, no quality at all.

Not only that but being that they plug into an electrical source, where do you think electricity comes from.

[Andy Foster]

Nice post Dave.

No-one in their right mind would dispute that a TM is more powerful than a porty, but power in the hand of a fool is a dangerous thing (not refering to anyone on this forum persay, just a turn of phrase - boy do you need to be careful not to offend these days!).

There are differing views on this otherwise it would not be an interesting topic.

If we are looking for facts regarding the two methods then maybe these are some of them;

TM - relatively expensive to buy
Porty - relatively cheap to buy but still not as cheap as some other methods

TM - more expensive than a porty to run if you include the cost of transportation
Porty - no more or less expensive than a TM to maintain but easier to transport

TM - limits the use of the vehicle as permanently fixed
Porty - can be removed from van so it can be used for other things

TM - Fast cleaning
Porty - slower than a TM by about 25% (if other posts are to be believed)

TM - fast drying times - if good wand technique
Porty - also fast drying times if good wand technique

TM - more jobs per day = more turnover if you charge the same as you would by other mothods
Porty - fewer jobs per day = lower turnover
(note - 'turnover' and not 'profit' or 'income'!)

TM - sometimes cannot be used due to lack of access
Porty - can go almost anywhere

TM - no electricity or water used from custy
Porty - reliant on water from custy and electricity too

TM - loud
Porty - quiet

TM - Can be used for other things - pressure washing for example
Porty - can only be used for designed purpose

There are doubtless more pros and cons for each of them - I bet if you added them up it would be about 50 - 50

Feel free to add your own - please try to remain objective so that we have intelligent discussion - I hope I have with the above.

Andy

[richie]

Be careful what you say Dave....You may be insulting many highly regarded and long proven businessmen  :

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

Although some of the Spitfire figures are debatable the essence of TM's having more Power is indisputable.

Then there are other factors like the chemistry of the detergents etc, dwell time, agitation, temperature applied at, use of right product for dirt/fibre, enzymes, colloids, STPP(MS) it gets complicated !

I have always tried to focus on the science rather than the hyperbole, big word for BS, and it is obvious that a TM, say Boxxer next to a high end portable, cleaning the same carpet will outperform BUT all the other factors can be used to compensate this power difference, and the end result can be just as good using both methods, although the porty will take longer.

Cheers

Doug

[murky]

Cant be bothered to go into a long diatribe about the pro's and cons of TM's.

But I would never willingly go back to a porty.

Mine is an entry level HM machine, I cant wait till I upgrade to a bigger one. Its just easier, quicker and most of all drier.

Murky