[Stephen Dwyer]

If you don't mind me asking TennetClean what would you actually classify as a "ladder monkey" ?  What kind of rules would you be looking out for that may be being broken? 

[TennetClean]

If you don't mind me asking TennetClean what would you actually classify as a "ladder monkey" ?  What kind of rules would you be looking out for that may be being broken?

I don't mind at all matey.

Basically these 2 things:

If I see somebody using ladders to clean a window that would be possible to with WFP, then that is breaking the law and I will report them.

SECONDLY If I see a window cleaner using ladders without a ladder clamp, somebody footing then that is also breaking the law.

Its pretty straightforward really.  I will be taking pictures and taking van registrations.

All in the name of civic duty.

So take my advice, if you are a ladder monkey, then stop now before I or someone like me reports you.

[kris martin]

If you don't mind me asking TennetClean what would you actually classify as a "ladder monkey" ?  What kind of rules would you be looking out for that may be being broken?

you really are a low life dirty piece of crap and i wouldnt spit on you if you were on fire....

there should be a vote to vote you off the site..

I don't mind at all matey.

Basically these 2 things:

If I see somebody using ladders to clean a window that would be possible to with WFP, then that is breaking the law and I will report them.

SECONDLY If I see a window cleaner using ladders without a ladder clamp, somebody footing then that is also breaking the law.

Its pretty straightforward really.  I will be taking pictures and taking van registrations.

All in the name of civic duty.

So take my advice, if you are a ladder monkey, then stop now before I or someone like me reports you.

[WCE]

If you don't mind me asking TennetClean what would you actually classify as a "ladder monkey" ?  What kind of rules would you be looking out for that may be being broken?

I don't mind at all matey.

Basically these 2 things:

If I see somebody using ladders to clean a window that would be possible to with WFP, then that is breaking the law and I will report them.

SECONDLY If I see a window cleaner using ladders without a ladder clamp, somebody footing then that is also breaking the law.

Its pretty straightforward really.  I will be taking pictures and taking van registrations.

All in the name of civic duty.

So take my advice, if you are a ladder monkey, then stop now before I or someone like me reports you.

The point is you say ladder work is against the law. Show me the legislation that outlaws ladder work. It is true that the working at height directive (WAHD) discourages it but it certainly does not outlaw it. Also what about companies or sole traders? There is a difference and the rules are different. How are you going to separate the two? Something that is a breach of regulations for a company may not be so for a sole trader. Have you considered this? What worries me is that several people have told you now that the use of ladders is not illegal and you still haven't got the point. maybe your grasp of H&S isn't as good as you think. Ladder use cant be made illegal because the simple fact is the WAHD covers more than window cleaning (you can't lay roof tiles with a pole or from the ground). The WAHD also says that working at height should be avoided where reasonably possible. This statement is deliberately vague. Reasonably could mean that if works are for short duration then it may not be economically viable to provide the a different system of working (in this case WFP).  I just thought I would point this out to you (not that it matters to me i'm WFP).

I see you are still making friends! I would think about what you are doing/saying making this many enemies there is a danger that people will start to ignore you.   

Its pretty straightforward really.

Really. If that's the case how come you've got it so wrong?

[paul hughes31]

one of my customers works for health and satfety and is sorting out documents for my  contracts and says that your full of poop....... ladders are not illegal.... obviously there are circumstances to how you can climb a ladder but i wonder why he hasnt reported me....

[poleman]

Chaps! have you not got it yet! dont take the bait! he is playing with you!

Its his bit of entertainment for the evening! dont feed his fire

[WCE]

Chaps! have you not got it yet! dont take the bait! he is playing with you!

Its his bit of entertainment for the evening! dont feed his fire

That is so true! I am sure he just posts things to wind people up. I tend to ignore his comments however the abuse he was getting on this thread was so funny that it had me in stitches! I thought I would post a reply to him because it would seem he thinks that he  knows better than everyone else and is always quick to correct anyone else that he thinks is wrong. I just thought I would point out that he is wrong on this one and that he should listen to the majority of posters on this thread who were telling him he is incorrect.  I also think as I said above that if he keeps posting just to wind people up, when he does actually have something useful to say he will find he is ignored. This forum is about discussion and helping people with their cleaning problems. Posts to wind people up are just wasting everybodies time and just lower the quality of the whole forum. A few people have mentioned that some of the old hands of the forum (who use to give great advice) have disappeared. Could that because they are fed up with pointless crap like this. If like wc said you don't take the bait and ignore him he will get fed up with it. Maybe then he will contribute something useful

[TennetClean]

WCE you are some amount of hilarious, I cant wait to see this magazine.

It is true that the working at height directive (WAHD) discourages it but it certainly does not outlaw it

Regulations dont "encourage" anything.  They either allow something or they dont.  There's no encouragement matey.

The work at height regulations say that if its possible to do a job from the ground THEN IT MUST BE DONE THAT WAY.  theres no ifs or buts, its that simple.  Guess what, using waterfed pole avoids the need to work at height, ergo if you are using ladders to clean a window that could have been done with WFP your breaking the law.

ALSO even if you do use ladders it plainly says you have to either use a ladder clamp or what it calls "stability device" or get someone to foot it.  So even if you somehow think you can get away with using ladders for pole-able windows (which you cant) you better be using one of these super-time consuming devices or get someone to foot them otherwise you are still breaking the law.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but just because most people on here think it aint against the law doesnt make them right.  Also, I think you wish that I was only posting to wind people up, WRONG I am deadly serious.

one of my customers works for health and satfety

Your customer "works for health and safety" what a cool job title. Something tells me he knows as little about the work at height regs as you do.

But anyway, theres no need to argue about all this, all will become clear after I report the first monkey.  I have been having some trouble finding them lately, but its only a matter of time.  Who knows, "it could be YOU."

Out of interest WCE, if you are going to be producing a magazine, should you not be encouraging the safest means possible instead of trying to promote dangerous and illegal practices?

[poleman]

www.videojug.com/film/how-to-behave-on-an-internet-forum

[RPCCS]

I have a friend who works for the hse and has given me copies of the "work at height regulations" which do not declare ladders illegal.So he can waste photos if he wants as no action will be taken by hse.They willonly take action if the ladders are being used in a dangerous manner.

[WCE]

WCE  I cant wait to see this magazine.

Your not the only one! What has this got to do with the thread?

It is true that the working at height directive (WAHD) discourages it but it certainly does not outlaw it

Regulations dont "encourage" anything.  They either allow something or they dont.  There's no encouragement matey.

I never said that they did encourage anything, the point is they didn't forbid ladder work.

The work at height regulations say that if its possible to do a job from the ground THEN IT MUST BE DONE THAT WAY.  theres no ifs or buts, its that simple.  Guess what, using waterfed pole avoids the need to work at height, ergo if you are using ladders to clean a window that could have been done with WFP your breaking the law.

The point you are missing is that even if a window can be cleaned using WFP there are other factors that come into it. As I said if you can prove that any risk can be reduced to an acceptable level and the work taking place is of short duration then the costs of WFP might be considered not to be viable on cost grounds. A risk assessment of the property would tell you if this is the case. Also don't turn round and say that if you are a window cleaner then  you should be able to afford WFP because that has nothing to do with it. If that was the case then every time your saw sky being installed the engineer would use a cherry picker to put up the satellite dish.

[TennetClean]

ok, i can see we're never going to agree about whether ladder window cleaners are breaking the law by not using WFP, and the only way to settle that for sure is to report one and see what happens.  Leave that to me 

BUT answer me this:

A window cleaner using ladders without a ladder stability device and without someone footing the ladder.

IS HE BREAKING THE LAW?

if you get this wrong then everything else you say can safely be disgarded as it will be obvious you do not know what your talking about and are simply out to appease ladder monkeys.

[AuRavelling79]

Strange you've not seen any ladder using window cleaners to report since April 26th, eh Tuppence me old china?

I'd love you to report a ladder user - I reckon it'll get about as much response as reporting a lost tenner to the Police ...

But hey, I'm sure you'll see one to report soon and tell us what happens.

I am seriously interested in the response you get. I'm ordering popcorn in keen anticipation ... 

[jonah]

ok, i can see we're never going to agree about whether ladder window cleaners are breaking the law by not using WFP, and the only way to settle that for sure is to report one and see what happens.  Leave that to me 

BUT answer me this:

A window cleaner using ladders without a ladder stability device and without someone footing the ladder.

IS HE BREAKING THE LAW?

if you get this wrong then everything else you say can safely be disgarded as it will be obvious you do not know what your talking about and are simply out to appease ladder monkeys.

Tennetclean we feel your pain , and we are all here to help , so just let go of the anger . . . . . . Feeling any better ?  calling somone a monkey is a negative statement !  You dont like laddders , do you ?  A ladder is an instrument to raise yourself higher isnt it ?  You are investing in the most high tech system that money can buy ? You dont understand why others are still employing ladders ? They are climbing up and looking down on you ! How dare they look down on you !

[macleod]

I have 'lost' quite a few local commercial contracts.
not because of anything I have done but becasue window cleaners (typically ladder users - no offence meant) on other sites have fallen off, or injured themselves (or worse) or not followed the WAHD as interupted by the company Director responsible for H&S.
when a H&S issue is brought to the attention of a Director (and not your mate who gave you the contract in the first place) the result is that the whole window cleaning goes for a national contract tender or some such solution.
I am small fry and cannot then tender for large national contracts, so what happens?
the person who 'wins' the national contract then subs it out locally for a fraction to a local window cleaner with a wfp.
so who wins? not me. not the ladder boys. only the larger contractors.
my opinion is this. if you want to be a window cleaner and only use ladders then stick to domestic and get rid of your commercial work.
right or wrong ladder boys will over time lose any decent commercial work they have, and at the same time they will lose any decent commercial work the rest of us have too.
on the site we are mostly small business and often comercial customers will put trust in larger contract cleaning companies when it comes to H&S
as i say right or wrong window cleaning has two very seperate specialist areas, Domestic & Commercial.
so i can understand the frustrations mentioned by TennetClean (and many others) and have felt the same way when i see the use of ladders on commercial sites, because it takes just one mistake to have a fall or be seen to operate a ladder in an unsafe manner (and it may be no fault of the very experienced window cleaner) and not only do they lose the comercial contract but it can have a ripple effect for all of us.

hope this is taken the right way, its not a pop at ladders but just a thought...

[TennetClean]

WCE?  You have gone quiet.

Could it be that this is a question you are unwilling to answer??

Let me ask it again:

A window cleaner using ladders without a ladder stability device and without someone footing the ladder.

IS HE BREAKING THE LAW?

[cooper]

as  i recall you  once too  was a ladder monkey

 but now youve evolved...but what into is the question 

[WCE]

WCE?  You have gone quiet.

Could it be that this is a question you are unwilling to answer??

Let me ask it again:

A window cleaner using ladders without a ladder stability device and without someone footing the ladder.

IS HE BREAKING THE LAW?

I am not unwilling to answer anything! The I think personally if you are using ladders then steps should be taken to reduce the risks of a ladder fall. The WAHD  says  "Dutyholders must avoid work at height where they can (before you start  getting excited, as i explained earlier this isn't as clear cut as it sounds and WFP  or a cherry picker maybe considered not to be viable on cost grounds. Thats part of the risk assessment stage and if you can prove that the risks have been reduced to an acceptable level then you could still use a ladder. However the same directive also states that you must have some measures in place to reduce the risk of fall. The thing is you were originally saying that ladders were outlawed, they are not. Now you are asking a different question. Are they breaking the law ? In my case I know that my risk assessment says that if a ladder is used then a stability device must be used. If I had an accident and hurt someone or someone working for me was injured after falling from a ladder that was had no form of  stability device then the HSE would have a field day as I have shown in the risk assessment that I could of reduced the risks easily and I ignored it. I suppose you would also be in trouble if you have no risk assessment or method statement . How could you show that you've attempted to reduce risks without them?  I hope that makes sense.
 My question to you Tuppence is what if you see someone using WFP in a dangerous manner will you report them too?

I cant wait to see this magazine.

OK! OK! I can see your excited you dont have to keep on about it. When it's out I will let you know!       

[TennetClean]

In answer to your question, YES i would report anybody using poles dangerously or illegally (though I dont think there are any laws about using poles yet), just the same, and I would also take their contracts if they got done.  ALSO even if someone used poles I would say to a building owner "Are they trained to use that equipment?" and then present my own certificate from the British Window Cleaning Academy.

You still haven't answered the question.

This is nothing to do with risk assessment at all.  The regulations plainly say what is required EVERY time you use a ladder, no matter what risk assessment is done.

SO again, and may I say, this is a simple yes or no answer, lets see if you actually manage to answer it this time:

A window cleaner using ladders without a ladder stability device and without someone footing the ladder.

IS HE BREAKING THE LAW?

[WCE]

In answer to your question, YES i would report anybody using poles dangerously or illegally (though I dont think there are any laws about using poles yet)

I didn't mention any laws. But here is an example of the bad practice i mean www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=51686.0  I assume that you would report this guy? (There is clearly a risk to the public with his actions).

This is nothing to do with risk assessment at all.

But  it does. As I said a particular method can be excluded for many reasons (cost grounds being one) See I would have difficulty arguing that it was OK for me to use a ladder for a window that could be cleaned WFP as I have all the right equipment. However a trad only guy could argue that it is not worth them investing in say £3000 worth of kit to clean a £10.00 house. However it does not make them exempt from reducing the risk to a minimum. They should be using controls to reduce risk.  Ladder work is not illegal that was what you said initially.  Now you seem to have accepted that is the case we will move on.

A window cleaner using ladders without a ladder stability device and without someone footing the ladder.
IS HE BREAKING THE LAW?[/b]

Technically, Yes. But how enforced is it? I mean there are many laws that are not enforced fully.  Look at cannabis. The law states that is illegal to have it on your person and it is an arrestable offence (even as a class C drug). However the most you are likely to get is an informal street caution for simple posession. The police simply don't want to waste their time on small fry. What is to say that the HSE won't take the same view of a sole trader window cleaner using a ladder that way. A large national company well their view might be different but it could be that the HSE will turn a blind eye (right or wrong) on such a breach from the solo window cleaner due to the amount of work & time that it would take to bring a prosecution. I don't know if that is the case or not but it is perfectly plausible that they could take this view. I guess you will be able to answer that question when you actually get to report someone, I will await the results with interest.