[Ian Gourlay]

I toook on every  bit of free advise I could find. A number of Forums exist and are invvaluable  for providing a wealth of information and are a great way to find solutions to problems.  However and this is a big however, beware those who apear to know to know a grat deal operate at the high risk of the spectrum  or are simply cowboys

A qoute from Nick johnston Director of NCCA  in this months  Cleaning and Maintenance Magazine#


While I agree to a certain extent with what Nick says I do not like the term Cowboys especially when someone has recentley joined the industry.

I say to anyone if the see dodgy advise on this Forum and do not want to get involved in the topic they can always email me as I have heard this acusation so often I would like the evidence.

Usually dodgy advised is questioned
and then we can all make our minds up,

I read this week about removing stains from Carpets with bleach i guess that could be classified as dodgy but I think we should be aware of the possibilty on the correctly identified carpet.

[Ken Wainwright]

I hear what you're saying Ian and agree.

Firstly, may I correct your quotation from Nick's article. You have paraphrased a little, so the whole of the sentence can be interpreted slightly differently. Nick was talking about advice received on internet forums.

 I quote from the article:
"....However (and this is a big however), beware those who appear to know a great deal, but either take shortcuts, operate at the high risk end of the spectrum or are simply cowboys. I soon learned who to trust"

We have all seen posts on all forums where the advice given could be seen by an experienced technician as being both wrong and carry a high risk. I know that, most of us know that, but an inexperienced newbie doesn't. I would call this sort of advice given as being that of a "cowboy"

It is quite rare, in my experience, for a newbie to be forthcoming with the sort of advice that would brand them a cowboy. They tend to be asking the questions and absorbing information rather than give it out.

How do we define a cowboy? Inexperienced? Untrained? Unwilling to accept sound advice? Someone out to make fast £££'s regardless of the consequences?

An inexperienced technician is just that. He/she would only become a cowboy if he had little regard for the consequences of his actions and didn't make any efforts to improve his knowledge or skills.

This is a fascinating topic you've raised Ian, and could go on forever with people raising examples and views in so many areas of our working lives.

Safe and happy cleaning
Ken

[spencer davies]

Wise words indeed from Ken, I do wonder sometimes if forums such as cleanitup become a substitute for training?

With information and help available here, the worry is that the demand for true education will diminish.


Regards



S

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

I have never heard of Nick Johnson, is he a member of any forums ?

With all forums and for that part any advice it is always necessary to evaluate the credibility of the giver, afterall how many in the CC industry have real qualifications, such as engineering, science etc ?

Generally the way it works is if someone gives potentially misleading information one of the more experienced CC's will add a note of caution.

Experience is a great commodity but the forums offer a fast track to what can be learned on the job as does training, they should compliment each other.

Cheers

Doug

[mark shannon]

Spot on Doug

[*paul_moss]

Doug, GOOD comment.
TOTAL COMMON SENCE.

[stevegunn]

Nick Johnson runs Zebra cleaning and is a member of the forum

[Ian Gourlay]

Ken

I am a little puzzled as this is an internet Forum

I disagree about newbies calling others cowboys as last year on a Forum  I saw a competotor of mine calling the cleaners who advertise in the local paper cowboys.  This was someone who had just joined the industry and then  joined NCCA.

I agree that Nick was not refering to newcomers as cowboys but more experienced people who could be construde as experts. What i was objecting to was that nick is a newcpmer to the industry , true he keeps good company , but to refer to such people as cowboys I find hard to swallow. My reference to newcomers was to Nick as he started in 2005

I do not think Forums are a substituye for training but I do think you can learn a lot from desk top research and networking

As someone who invests alot of time on trhis Forum on a voluntary basis I take offence at the slightest slur against it .

It apears Nick is one of us so maybee he would like to elaborate on who the cowboys are

[mark shannon]

What qualifications has Nick got that give his comments weight ?

[Ian Gourlay]

I think what I was concerned about was a  Director of the NCCA calling other cleaners cowboys.

I believe Directors of the NCCA should be a unifying force not afraid to say if they think somthing is not correct

I do think we do need to be polite if critised about are methods but then explain why we think our method works.

[*paul_moss]

Has Nick been in the industry since 2005 or an NCCA director since 2005? with many more years experience.

[Ian Gourlay]

As  I read it he started his own company in 2005 after being a consultant to another small cleaning company for a short period of time.

Prior to that he worked in banking and Finnancial Services

I think it is good newcomers to the industry are on the board of NCCA

[*paul_moss]

If the NCCA are going to go any were they do need new blood with drive, as the main drivers in this industry they should be able to generate massive business for its members by recoqnition alone, unfortunatley thats not the case.

[spencer davies]

The NCCA win us work all of the time when quoting, as I always enlighten our customers about to the Association, if you use them to your advantage, then the yearly membership is good value for money, I don't think the association has the time or the resources to be out there pitching for work.

It is a pity a network throughout the UK isn't set up to compete against the Nationals and Franchises, not an easy thing to do, but with the right planning and criteria success could be had.


Regards




S

[*paul_moss]

Spencer the NCCA could certainly do this as employing somebody soley for this purpose would pay massive dividends. This is what I mean about moving forward.
If they dont somebody else  is likely to do so and probably soon.

[lands]

 

[LTT Leathercare]

The internet and education.
The problem with the internet as a learning facility is that it tends to be a presenter of facts rather than a place of learning. It is the 'new thing' on which anything can be found but experience.
On the internet forum people present facts (or a problem resolution) without putting them into proper context  without the ability to ensure that all of those who are 'listening' are fully aware of the 'what if ' effects that may be lurking if the situation is at all different from the one presented. Experience is the ability to do this.
Education is teaching people to learn how to take the facts presented and determine how they best fit the situation in front of them using a deeper knowledge of the subject.
It is this deeper knowledge that is very difficult to present in the forum model of fast track learning. People become impatient and want their question answered now without the time consuming inconvenience of learning the subject.
If people took the time to learn their subject they could work out the answers for them selves and use the forum as a place to swap experience.

And while I'm here I'll make a comment on ' Cowboys and inexperience'.
I view it as a difference in morality. My view of a 'cowboy' would be an operative (experienced or inexperienced) who manipulates a customer into spending money unnecessarily, uses short cuts that detract from the finished job whilst still charging full price or taking on work that they are not capable of doing to a required standard and intending to get away with it.
I'm sure even the most experienced of us have created situations that show gaps in our experience but we can usually work our way through it or have the honesty to admit our fault and pay for the consequence

Andy Alcock
Technical Director LTT Ltd

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Andy

I agree in depth training is difficult over the internet but it is does allow fast movement of info, not always a good thing but generally beneficial.

I have always tried to give a bit of background to some of the issues like pH, solvents etc so that CC's can make a better judgement of supplier claims and not be led down the path of purchasing poor/unnecessary chemicals and can have better chances of stain removal etc.

Stain removal is difficult to get across as the last thing we want is bleached carpets.

Part of my CCDO talk will be on what stain removal is easy and safe and what isn't.

Cheers

Doug

[sherco]

I have just started cc and have done the prochem course, i think with this forum and the guys on here who give so much very good advice it will stop people being cowboys, i have learnt so many useful tips its really going to help me be as professional as i can be, and several guys said they will take me out with them to give me advice. Thanks guys you have been a real help.

[Jason Hedges]

Hi Sherco,

This forum and others will provide people with advice especially when new to the industry. Coming into this business is a daunting process and full of pitfalls.

There are many people on here offering good advice and support for newbies like yourself. You only need pick up the phone and ask many members on here and they will be more than happy to help you out me included

All the best with your new venture,

All the best,
Jason.