[[GQC] Tim]

no the downtime comment is not unnecessary.

someone running a business turning over a million pounds a year or more isn't interested in saving 2k if it means if the machine fails they are going to lose more time than is necessary.

the facts speak for themselves, Brodex sell a lot of machines, the comapnies buying them are usually quite big, and they haven't got big by being stupid with their money.

I bet you are running an Ionics system and don't know anything about how it works. Am I right?

Reason I'm saying it that a machine doesn't just 'fail'.

[Wayne Thomas]

Luke's comment about Ionics hosereel being the same as all the others is rubbish. Ionics one is stainless steel, larger diameter, easier to reel in. Yes it costs nearly £300 incl VAT & postage but worth the money. Wouldn't waste my money on the other ones as he calls them as IMO they are **** (not swearing). My point being...two similar products are NOT identical, far from it.

[Captain Scarlet]

Just had a look in my Ionic catalogue:



They have a metal one and a plastic one, not too disimilar from my one



The metal one has plastic wheels, mine is metal with plastic wheels too.

On the Ionics home page they have a picture containing their plastic one which I wouldnt ever use, yet they actively promote this product. My hosreel ( I have 2 of them ) is brilliant.

http://www.ionicsystems.com/english/index.html



Luke

[[GQC] Tim]

Industrial made products should be of better quality.
They would have had more money invested in there design (R&D)

The companies that manufacture and sell these are mostly organised
to deal with other firms that are just as big if not biggar than they are.

So although diy wfp systems can do the same job and may be just as reliable
they are not as refined. By default not as good.

Ewan 

Your joking I hope. So just because it isn't pretty, or as 'refined', is isn't as good by default?

[Captain Scarlet]

Im not arguing if DIY is better than a FITTED system, my own system is FITTED. I just think Ionics are a rip off and so are some Brodex products. Well actually rip off is the wrong term as the buyer knows full well what their getting. Luke

[[GQC] Tim]

Im not arguing if DIY is better than a FITTED system, my own system is FITTED. I just think Ionics are a rip off and so are some Brodex products. Well actually rip off is the wrong term as the buyer knows full well what their getting. Luke

I'm not a fan of DIY fitting at all, but buy a good tank cage, get it professionally fitted, and the rest you can do yourself, with zero problems. Even in the unlikely even that your pump dies, you can just get another one easily, and mount it. What on earth is it with people and paying £6k or more for a system that can be done for a stupid amount less.

Now you tell me, what else can go wrong on a system. Unless your a noob, that's about it. Oh dear, a hoseconnector goes, let's get an instant replacement from Ionics. lol 

[Captain Scarlet]

What it really comes down to is what you can do with your system ( Ionics or not ) But in my case there is nothing an Ionics system has that my system doesnt. Or can do better than mine. There is simply nothing. Yet I could have spent 3-4 times more on their system.

[jr windows]

Hi Ruperthehair,

What system do you have ?

[[GQC] Tim]

I would still choose my own system, without doubt. Or a Purefreedom system, I don't like to depend on Ionics for all my spare parts like filters etc.

As for looks, I do like the way Ionic systems look, but I very much like the see what you get look from Purefreedom aswell.

(Don't mean to be offending to anyone who has a Ionics system or Brodex, but I've got strong opinions on this. )

[Captain Scarlet]

I have the following system in my 2.0 Peugeot Expert HDI:

500ltr tank fitted into chassis, 100 psi shurlfo pump, Varistream, Battery, DI filtration ( TDS OF 24!! ), hosereels and 100m of 8mm microbore fitted with ez snap ends

My poles:

1 x 50ft Carbon Fibre Super-light 2
2 x 17ft Glass Fibre Xtels
1 x 25ft Aluminium Brodex Pro-long
1 x spare 18ft Brodex Predator

Brushes:

4x various vikan brushes
1 x Super-lite brush ( Bentley )
1 x Ionics dual trim brush

My trad stuff:

Pointer, ladders, step ladders, ladder mats, rojack, trad pole, scrapers, buckets, gg3, oil flo 141, microfibre swivel, squeegees etc

Other stuff:

I carry spares for some things, like a spare pump and other little things and some tools. I alos carry my tds meter and a bag of resin.

[jr windows]

I wish my tds was 24 never mind.

[Captain Scarlet]

if you was offered any free system on the market what would be your choice?

I would go for a Concept 2o heated di system. Not because its better than my system but because it looks nice!

[[GQC] Tim]

Hehe, yep, that's a very pretty system.   

I would add some blue neon tubes though, and some undervan lighting to complete the imagine, and some glow in the dark signwriting.

[[GQC] Tim]

I would still choose my own system, without doubt. Or a Purefreedom system, I don't like to depend on Ionics for all my spare parts like filters etc.

As for looks, I do like the way Ionic systems look, but I very much like the see what you get look from Purefreedom aswell.

(Don't mean to be offending to anyone who has a Ionics system or Brodex, but I've got strong opinions on this. )

Fair enough thats only your choice, but it's the industry that gives the real picture.
You cannot argue against that.

I think the small firms that make the diy systems, dream of being like the bigger one's!

Ewan 

I don't think they do, Purefreedom installs thousands of systems on a yearly basis. I don't think they have any intention to look like Ionics. And as for the industry giving the real picture, there are many who don't have a fancy system but still get around just fine. Probably much more then Ionics/Brodex/Concept2o/Omnipole.

[alanwilson]

GQC - no I don't run an Ionics system - and yes I probably know a lot more about how they work than you (Aeronautical Engineer thanks) so yes I understand quite easily how RO works, how the pumps work etc - its childs play.

I had my own systems designed specifically for my vans (my choice) by another Engineer, however if I owned a large firm, with a million pounds turnover or more then I would never contemplate anything other than Ionics or Brodex, the downtime factor is really important, as is the crash testing certificates.  You have to understand big business don't play about, they can't take the risk that comes with using smaller firms/ and or systems that haven't been crash tested etc.

why argue with me about this - the facts speak for themselves, I don't see the smaller wfp suppliers fitting systems into vans for OCS. 

Luke - you have a nice selection of poles - which one do you think will give least problems in time?  I'd say the prolong - it might not  be the nicest pole to work with but do you think the chief exec or whatever of OCS cares that you don't like it?  NO - all he cares about is you getting the job done and not suing his company for having the tank slap you in the back when you have an accident - well, either you or your family.

I tell you what, the next time you see an OCS van or the like cleaning windows go and have a look in the back of the van - I can promise you know its not going to be anything other than Brodex/Ionics?Tucker - I very much doubt even Concept 2o have ever fitted a system for any of the big players.

GQC - you really think that PureFreedom install thousands of systems every year?  You really haven't a clue do you?  I would reckon the figure to be closer to 250 at most.

rant over

[[GQC] Tim]

Alan, nice post, but still you didn't explain what you mean with 'downtime', you continue to speak about downtime, but realistically, when is that. And if your an Engineer then you would be able to spot the problem instantly wouldn't you? So would anyone who's got any knowledge about their system. I can understand big companies have employees that know nothing about it, and can't even be bothered to push a fitting on a again. If you mean downtime with that, I can totally understand. All the other windowcleaners will recognize a problem aswell when they see it.

Crashtest certificate is very good I agree. But only is proof that you'll be safe, ofcourse big companies look for that. But this was purely talking about a normal system for 99.8% of all window cleaners, and you don't need 6k for that. And if you get it installed right, there is no chance it will move in an accident, and for 99.8% of people the knowledge of that is good enough.

Ewan, I'm pro innovation, but having to spend 4k extra on a system that does exactly the same isn't innovation, that's a ripoff. But okay, it's fine for noobs I guess.

[jr windows]

As per Alex G earlier post, about fill up times and water waste. This effects all wc using wfp and the effects we have on the planet we live on. I don't have any problems with diy brodex or ionics I'm just thinking about the place my 14 month old daughter might be living in, in a few years? Off my environmental soapbox now, must be getting old!!!

[alanwilson]

GQC

1 - what I can spot is totally irrelevant - we are talking about firms with employees, guys who know nothing about how the systems work, probably don't know how to use it right either, they just know how to switch it on.

2 - Crash testing is mega important for the big firms, H+S is such a big issue for them, I doubt anyone of the big companies would entertain a machine that hasn't been crash tested.

Downtime, the time lost when an employee isn't working - lets say due to a faulty pump.

£6k might seem like a lot of money but to a firm employing staff it isn't a lot to pay for the peace of mind that comes with a factory fitted system.

[brightnclean]

You can make any system fill faster and give less waste water.

Just add another membrane and maybe boost water pressure if urs is a bit low. All pretty basic stuff really.

I have both Ionics and Freedom systems. The performance is exactly the same. The price isn't though

If I wanted to fill faster and have less waste I would simply add another 40 inch memrane.. run the waste from the first into the in on the second and cut down my waste to permeate ratio.

[alanwilson]

very true ewan


the real issue here is money

Big companies have lots of it - so its not an issue.

Peace of mind is an issue though, its important.