[Davo]

Interesting thread, unfortunately locked.

Its all about balance, arguments tend to focus on extremes, £500 van against £30 k. There is a great deal of ground in between.

I think the issue is based on risk to reward. Spending money doesnt guarantee you success, just in the same way that doing everything "on the cheap" doesnt guarantee success either. Investing money so that it gives you the best chance of success is the key to any successful business.

If a better vehicle means that you spend less time off the road ( Earning less money) means you can carry more water ( chance to earn more money) gets new customers to notice what you do ( chance to earn more money) then invest  whatever figure your business or personal finances can afford.

However IMO a £5000 vehicle correctly presented and signwritten is worth more to your business than an unliveried brand new van. The way in which you conduct yourself when your dealing with customers is worth more than  the latest pole.

But being the nicest most reliable friendly fella will only get you so far. saying that, maybe the argument is how far do you want to go?





Mark



 

[frames to panes]

Good balanced answer, I locked it myself because i felt i had heard both sides which is what i wanted and couldn't see the point in going further and ending in a slanging match where two extremes would get upset. I only wanted views and not attacks.

[Paul Coleman]

Interesting thread, unfortunately locked.

Its all about balance, arguments tend to focus on extremes, £500 van against £30 k. There is a great deal of ground in between.

I think the issue is based on risk to reward. Spending money doesnt guarantee you success, just in the same way that doing everything "on the cheap" doesnt guarantee success either. Investing money so that it gives you the best chance of success is the key to any successful business.

If a better vehicle means that you spend less time off the road ( Earning less money) means you can carry more water ( chance to earn more money) gets new customers to notice what you do ( chance to earn more money) then invest  whatever figure your business or personal finances can afford.

However IMO a £5000 vehicle correctly presented and signwritten is worth more to your business than an unliveried brand new van. The way in which you conduct yourself when your dealing with customers is worth more than  the latest pole.

But being the nicest most reliable friendly fella will only get you so far. saying that, maybe the argument is how far do you want to go?





Mark



 

I was going to post a reply then discovered that I couldn't.  Not sure why it was locked.  Maybe some posts were deleted before it was locked.  I've gone down the middle road with this issue myself.  I'm not into DIYing a system and would rather buy a working system myself.  I got a second hand van that was under 3 years old.  In the first few months I spent about £15,000 of borrowed money on van/system/poles etc.  In all, over two and a half years, I've probably done about £18,000 as my methods have evolved.

Could I have done it for less?  Yes.
Would it have been more aggravation for me?  Yes

IMO, neither way is wrong.  The beauty of window cleaning is that we build our businesses in the way that is most suitable for our individual personalities.

However, some of the jobs I've done would have meant several return journeys if I had done the trolley/containers route.  There would have been a lot more humping stuff around which my back isn't really up to as well.

In all, the loan for the van system costs me £200 a month.  The credit card repayments for the other stuff I've bought are about £100 a month (and I do swap this to different cards to keep the interest down).  Also, the bigger van is more to run than a smaller van.  I suppose that, in all, my extra outgoings are about £330 a month.  My extra income dwarfs that - though it took a while to build the workload up higher to compensate for the extra speed of WFP.  Also, bear in mind that the taxman helps me pay for this in the form of capital allowances or, in the case of smaller items and consumables, straight year on year tax relief.

[Paul Coleman]

Good balanced answer, I locked it myself because i felt i had heard both sides which is what i wanted and couldn't see the point in going further and ending in a slanging match where two extremes would get upset. I only wanted views and not attacks.

I wrote my response before reading this BTW.   

[Londoner]

I thought it was a good thread. Trouble is Saturday night discussions often get a bit heated.
My view is I spend money to make my life easier. The things I buy make a positive contribution in some way to my working life.

In my opinion the flash vans and uniforms are a product of the franchises that seem to be springing up. The people who take out these franchises are usually newbies if not complete outsiders and are told that this image will make them stand out above the rest of the window cleaning world.

That may be true or it may not, we can certainly debate it for ever and not agree. What is probably more true is that the people selling the franchises need to convince potential franchisees that they hold the secret of success and the visual reinforcement of a branded image helps them sell franchises.
Whether it helps the franchisee remains to be seen. Some franchises in the cleaning sector have made it, I am thinking of Molly Maids and Servicemaster.  

[simon knight]

Trouble is Saturday night discussions often get a bit heated.
   

Lager fueled? :

[Londoner]

Without doubt. The replies get more "interesting" as the night wears on. But the lads have probably had a hard week, they need to let off steam.

[Village Gleam]

There wasn't a great deal of disagreement, just people saying the same things in different ways.
I think you can summarize what I say on most subjects as trying to apply the clearest and most logical thinking to the topic; investment in business, hot systems, marketing etc whatever, and taking best practice and experience from other fields to try and inform this.

Notice I used the word try, try to inform etc,and I didn't claim I was right or any more logical than anyone else.

Nice if we could all put our case and then lock the topic, but life isn't like that.My level of investment is very similar to shiners as is my income.The difference may be how long I've been doing it and my willingness to learn.

[frames to panes]

I could see several people becoming upset about this : the guy with the cheap van in the post who doesn't deserve to be insulted in any way, and one or two guys who have gone down the other route who have to justify their expenditure in a very forceful way. I got the views i wanted from both sides and locked it to try and stop any insults.

[Londoner]

My grandad always used to say "the best horse in the stable is nearly always the most trouble"
Real discussions about real issues, not a problem, but you were right to lock it.

[Moderator David@stives]

The man who has got his head screwed on is the man who has actually got the work , not the man who thinks he knows how to get the work.

This is not a dig at anyone by the way.

Dave

[Nathanael Jones]

The man who has got his head screwed on is the man who has actually got the work , not the man who thinks he knows how to get the work.

This is not a dig it anyone by the way.

Dave

Very true!

 

[macmac]

The man who has got his head screwed on is the man who has actually got the work , not the man who thinks he knows how to get the work.

This is not a dig it anyone by the way.

Dave

At last, common sense prevails

Davo-  Good opening post, you're right the original post did end up at extremes of the scale & lost all balance. My hands are up, got drawn in a little :

Tony

[Village Gleam]

The man who has got his head screwed on is the man who has actually got the work , not the man who thinks he knows how to get the work.

This is not a dig at anyone by the way.

Dave

So you can't think through or intelectualise it, you have to do it?

I've always been a dreamer, often pipe dreams, but when I do connect i tend to hit it out of the ground.

[macmac]

The man who has got his head screwed on is the man who has actually got the work , not the man who thinks he knows how to get the work.

This is not a dig at anyone by the way.

Dave

So you can't think through or intelectualise it, you have to do it?

I've always been a dreamer, often pipe dreams, but when I do connect i tend to hit it out of the ground.

Let us know what happens when you connect this time Mr.Sol. Please

Tony

[matt]

The man who has got his head screwed on is the man who has actually got the work , not the man who thinks he knows how to get the work.

This is not a dig at anyone by the way.

Dave

indeed and plenty of " DIY'ers " on the lwoer end of the " money spent scale" have the work

the domestic customer also like the idea of the " honest joe, working man " it goes down well, the guy who works in a office like to think of himself as slightly better off, in many cases he isnt, but its what you let him belive that counts and also lets you get away with charging good money for a unskilled / semiskilled job

[Moderator David@stives]

MR Sol

It is down to the individual not the tools.

The right tools and image might help but it wont give you a business.

I know guys in this business turning over £250k using home made systems and old vans.

Also know other guys turning over the same with off the shelf systems.

It is down to your own business accumin to succeed whatever tools you use.

Dave

[TennetClean]

the domestic customer also like the idea of the " honest joe, working man " it goes down well

LOL only if thats what they are themselves, in which case they are of no interest to me as customers.  This and the other thread has given me a useful insight into the cobble-together mentality.  Clearly as with all trades peobably there are window cleaners and there are window cleaners.

FLIP, whats happening in the north sea?  Anyone know? Is it terrorism?

[dai]

There s always a risk when you buy a second hand vehicle. My last van cost £300 and I got two and a half years out of it. I have a trailer, and tow bar fitted on my car.
If anything goes wrong with the van I can still work from the car and trailer. This is an advantage if you use a trolley system.
To make a large investment in my business would in my case be throwing money away, as I said before, I'm 65 and have all the work I can handle.
A tidy lettered van can bring you work, it's advertising your business, but the vast majority of clients have no idea about WFP systems, and wouldn't know the difference between a brand new Ionics or a well put together DIY system.
Say you phone around looking for commercial work, If your lucky you find a prospective client, you then have to go and talk to them, they are usually busy people so you ask their requirements, look at the job, and give them a price. Some clients may say "fine carry on", the majority will promise to get back to you.
The prospective client has remained in the building throughout, and has not even seen your van parked outside, let alone have a clue about what's inside it.
An Escort 55 is the smallest van that meets my requirements, I do over 50 miles a day and the Escort is good on diesel. At £350 I can forget about depreciation, and the tax man gives me £4,500 a year to run it. It's not rocket science, I run my business in the most cost efficient way. Dai

[matt]

the domestic customer also like the idea of the " honest joe, working man " it goes down well

LOL only if thats what they are themselves, in which case they are of no interest to me as customers.  This and the other thread has given me a useful insight into the cobble-together mentality.  Clearly as with all trades peobably there are window cleaners and there are window cleaners.

FLIP, whats happening in the north sea?  Anyone know? Is it terrorism?

you would be s.prised to see the houses on my round, i do alot of bigger houses, not your average 3 bed semi
its funny how people get it into their heads that the perception they have of others must be right

of course you with your 100 quid a clean houses that you do 10 a day, i guess your the exception  : : but hey, you have said it yourself, your special :