[windowwashers]

Yes, that's the nub. I think my investment was about13k, but we're not actually talking about ourselves but the theory of it. Within reason the more you invest the greater the return. That's just a business fact.

What's implied is that people on the heavier investment side of the argument haven't been going long and therefore lack experience, or somehow overestimate their own achievments.

If I was your age DJW with your resources I would do things pretty much as you have. I've read your posts and think you've done very well. The theory side doesn't take into account that you have to pay bills etc which I don't.(any wc earnings of mine are on top of a high pre-existing income).

Your business is growing all the time and you are working very hard at it. Sooner or later you  will come on a par with people who have been operating ten or more years. What I am saying, or what the pro investment lobby are saying, is that with the higher investment (in other words if you'd have had the money to start with as I did), and with an 'all the right moves' marketing approach they could be 'caught' inside a year.

Not everyone sees life as the race I seem to think it is, and you will notice from Ian Giles's posts that he wandered in the wilderness for a few years before rediscovering a sence of purpose. So things don't always happen in a straight line.

There is a natural ceiling to our earnings anyway, and you will soon hit it. We are governed by what we are physicaly able to do on our own. So a good system that reduces effort, increases both self esteem, and others perceptions of us would seem to me a sound investment.

the more you invest the more you return is not a business fact at all MR S, I am shocked by that comment.

Business sence is knowing where to invest and where to get the best returns on investment, if you think investing makes you money you need to look at real facts not knocking you but that comment is mental (most have heard the saying throwing money at the wall) investing has to be a well thought out part of business a foolish man invests money just on a whim, on wfp that does not mean you have to have the most expensive system nor does it mean you have to have it hot to get the best return on investment, I for one can stand by what I am saying on this one, I do ok from cold.

Mr S please dont think i am swiping at you, I am pointing out what you said on your post is wrong to a degree, I may not be able to spell to well but I have been in business long enough to know that comment is way out and I have also had a market stall, yes investment can work if done right, investing with a blind eye costs people a lot of money, most expensive is not always the best, we all live and learn but dont make in costly people that are reading this post  

You do have to invest a certain amount to go forward, but this does not have to be the amount some claim on here.


Ian

[Moderator David@stives]

mine takes £78  to fill up,

[d s windowcleaning]

i invested around £2000 and ive done really well out of that my heads well and truly screwed on .   

[Village Gleam]

Can you stay on topic please Dave. They'd be a shake up if I was the gaffer.

Matt I was about to say something about christoper Marlow always living in shakespeares shadow but then realised you were quoting someone else.

I have a friend who cuts keys, he's done quite well. Anyway I found out who morley is.
"Printer's ink has been running a race against gunpowder these many, many years. Ink is handicapped, in a way, because you can blow up a man with gunpowder in half a second, while it may take twenty years to blow him up with a book. But the gunpowder destroys itself along with its victim, while a book can keep on exploding for centuries." — Chistopher Morley, The Haunted Bookshop
"Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to continually be part of unanimity."
"A man who has never made a woman angry is a failure in life."
"No man is lonely while eating spaghetti — it requires too much attention."
"When you sell a man a book, you don't sell him 12 ounces of paper and ink and glue--you sell him a whole new life."
"The most interesting persons are always those who have nothing special to do: children, nurses, policemen and actors at 11 o'clock in the morning." — Christopher Morley, Travels in Philadelphia
"Philadelphia was the first city to foresee the advantages of a Federal constitution and oatmeal as a breakfast food." — Christopher Morley, Travels in Philadelphia
"There is only one success, . . . to be able to spend your life in your own way. . . ." — Christopher Morley, Where The Blue Begins

[edit] Trivia

[bluez]

Same discussion different day.  Why does someone have to be right and someone wrong, I have read all of the posts in this thread and I think your all right, if it works for you!

I have a slightly different take on the issue, I have bought the flash vans and good off the shelf gear mainly because I saw an opportunity in window cleaning but I also wanted to avoid the stigma of being a window cleaner (dont shoot me, it's not my stigma its how many others view it).

In the early days before I had built up my business and developed a reputation I was a bit self concious about what it was I did for a living mainly because everyone I knew thought I was loop the loop giving up a good career and risking my families livelihood.

They probably still think Im loopy but the difference is that I now can justify it to the only people who count myself and my family.

[matt]

I have a friend who cuts keys, he's done quite well. Anyway I found out who morley is.
"Printer's ink has been running a race against gunpowder these many, many years. Ink is handicapped, in a way, because you can blow up a man with gunpowder in half a second, while it may take twenty years to blow him up with a book. But the gunpowder destroys itself along with its victim, while a book can keep on exploding for centuries." — Chistopher Morley, The Haunted Bookshop
"Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to continually be part of unanimity."
"A man who has never made a woman angry is a failure in life."
"No man is lonely while eating spaghetti — it requires too much attention."
"When you sell a man a book, you don't sell him 12 ounces of paper and ink and glue--you sell him a whole new life."
"The most interesting persons are always those who have nothing special to do: children, nurses, policemen and actors at 11 o'clock in the morning." — Christopher Morley, Travels in Philadelphia
"Philadelphia was the first city to foresee the advantages of a Federal constitution and oatmeal as a breakfast food." — Christopher Morley, Travels in Philadelphia
"There is only one success, . . . to be able to spend your life in your own way. . . ." — Christopher Morley, Where The Blue Begins

[edit] Trivia

ref the key cutting, it was my attemt at humour ( not sure if people missd it though ) tuppenceclean is found of calling DIY'ers " cobblers, they who cobble together systems ", and most cobblers ( i.e shoe repairs ) also cut keys see what i did

ref Christopher Morley, some1 said i had the right idea on life on here a few years back ( this was on another thread about working all the hours god sends or spending time with my then baby daughter, which was the reason i started WC'ing, so i could work the hours i wanted, she has since started school and we have another little baby ), , i said someting along the lines of " i dont need some1 else to tell me what success is, my success it being able to work my hours and being a dad, he then posted the Christopher Morley qoute, i will be honest, it sums up how i feel, to you i might appear lazy and have no drive, but my drive is being able to work the hours i want and still provide and have a cracking realationship with my family, for example, today i did a school forest walk all morning, my daughter loved me doing it, then i got back, we had lunch and i wetn back to school to put together a shed for the school, i know i could have gone out and worked 5 hours and earn money, but i did my bit for the school

so anyways, wha is your "other high income earner"

[Tosh]

Matt,

It sounds like you've got the 'work - life' balance spot on.

I wish I did a few years ago.

[P @ F]

Given the choice of Tosh's life and the Tennet life , i would choose Tosh life , fun with your family , giving somthing back to the community , time off , what more could you want , an early stress related death like like Tennet , money isnt the be all and end all of it my friend , you cant spend it when you is dead man !
The only people who will thank you tennet is your kids , easy life when you are 6 foot under , cheers dad

[matt]

Guys,

For me/us, window cleaning is just a means to an end.  I don't really care who has the newest van or latest pole; though I do meet up with Ian Giles for a beer (or two) on a fairly regular basis; we share the same local since we live fairly close to each other and I often call him names (to his face of course), 'cos he can earn more than Wor Lass 'n' I together!  I use a backpack; he's got a shiny sign-written van.

He's also got far better work than I (I've done some of it to cover when he's off on holiday); but it's taken him over twenty years, and we've been in the trade for five years; so I'm not jealous one little bit.  Many of his class accounts; large 3 storey stuff; he did for years from ladders; heavy HEAVY ones (I've borrowed them and not given them back; but I wouldn't like to work with them on a regular basis; no way).

But anyway, to me, window cleaning is an escape from the rat race.  In fact, I became a window cleaner to escape the stress of a well paid, but highly pressurised occupation; an occupation that had I stuck, I'd have gotten about 40K tax free and £500 per month pension at the age of 40 years old (only two years away now).

I don't have any regrets about leaving the army five years ago and giving up my pension (though I do get a a decent forces pension when I'm 60 (Inch Allah); money isn't everything; quality of life does it for me.

tosh, my bro in law is in the police, he has 8 years to go till a full good pension and a fairly big lump sum, he sint sure he can stick it for that long

see even though i know what i do, and i do what i do, im not sure i could give up a good pension and a lump sum for the sake of waiting 8 years, it would be too good to give up

does that make me strange 

[matt]

Matt,

It sounds like you've got the 'work - life' balance spot on.

I wish I did a few years ago.

i feel so too tosh,

when i read about this gov and this country, its not been too bad to me so far , im happy with my lot, a few holidays and a nice house, it does me fine

you got the caravan sorted out yet ? ? ? ?

[AuRavelling79]

I think I've got my head screwed on ...

[Justen Uff]

I think you're head is not screwed up as tightly as you think


But compared to a few others on this subject (which again I have read all of it) you arent doing so bad

[Davo]

Mark

Are you calling me a liar !!!!!

Good job i didnt tell you about the guys who turn over even more than that.

Dave

Of course I wasnt calling you a liar, just using your post to illustrate the point that some claims of earnings on this forum are dwarfed by the earnings of cleaners that you know.

And I have a fair idea of who the really big hitters are who a forum members, but they tend to do more listening than talking.


Mark

[Davo]

Quote
To make my possition clear-
I dont doubt the earnings of window cleaners, what i dissagree with is that you need a 25k set up to acheive them, you don't.
If i insult someone it's 'cos they insult me by assuming i don't earn top money, have good contracts or good customers, i do, & i don't have the 25k set up.

Tony


Mac mac I agree with you, you dont need to spend vast ammounts  to earn good money, I personaly think that the flash setup will never be a substitute for working "smart"  however I do think its a matter of personal choice. What does puzzle me though is why it annoys you so much when someones perspective doesnt tally with yours. I would have thought it would give you even more satisfaction to know your earning without spending the sums that others do.



Mark 

[macmac]

Quote
To make my possition clear-
I dont doubt the earnings of window cleaners, what i dissagree with is that you need a 25k set up to acheive them, you don't.
If i insult someone it's 'cos they insult me by assuming i don't earn top money, have good contracts or good customers, i do, & i don't have the 25k set up.

Tony


Mac mac I agree with you, you dont need to spend vast ammounts  to earn good money, I personaly think that the flash setup will never be a substitute for working "smart"  however I do think its a matter of personal choice. What does puzzle me though is why it annoys you so much when someones perspective doesnt tally with yours. I would have thought it would give you even more satisfaction to know your earning without spending the sums that others do.



Mark 

Yeah, you're right, i tend to get drawn in a bit. It's the thought of someone, a newby mainley getting a completely false impression of w/cing. Some people are risking a hell of a lot by changing carreer, giving up jobs, pensions etc.
Many posters on here give the impression that if you spend 20k on a set up & flash new van, you're made for life almost instantly- WFP- the magic wand, drop a moaning custy & hey, 20 new ones come running towards you all begging to give you more money etc. etc.
People make some big decisions based on info from this site & i personaly think it selfish to exagerate the reality. Although it does make me look negative a lot of the time, i feel it most important to show both sides of the coin.
To build a good round that pays well with minimum effort takes a lot of work & time, no tool, van, system will do it for you.



Tony

[Wayne Thomas]

The best financial advice I'll give is to live within your means.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to trade in some old WF poles that were heavy and worn out for some newer, lighter ones IF you can afford it because it will improve your health and allow you to work quicker.
Same applies with any WFP gear, so long as you benefit from the unique advantages of it, then it's value for money providing you can't buy it or a similar alternative elsewhere at considerably cheaper prices.
Young window cleaners have more aspirations than the older ones and normally want to be the best, have the best gear, etc, that's fine because it gives them a goal to achieve, but be realistic, and don't get into debt, it's too easy. It's a lot, lot, lot, harder to get out of debt.
Most people in this country live in debt and no doubt stress too. It can ruin marriages, partnershps and your health if it spirals out of control. The older generation would loathe being in debt so they can sleep easy, whilst the younger ones accept it as the norm.

[Village Gleam]

Matt,
At last something I can commend you on. You live your life by a mission statement. In the begining you also had a very specific brief for the WFP site. If you approach all your projects like this that's why you've mainly succeeded. Woolly thinking drives me mad.

WW. In the few months you've had a van and wfp your business has expanded rapidlly. This is cause and effect. You invest, you get a return (mainly). That's why it's a business fact.

[matt]

Matt,
At last something I can commend you on. You live your life by a mission statement. In the begining you also had a very specific brief for the WFP site. If you approach all your projects like this that's why you've mainly succeeded. Woolly thinking drives me mad.

watch it, people might think that was a compliment   

oh and  my projects succed to varying degree's, but they allways succed, as im that type of person who doesnt stop till they do ( its 1 of my bad points i have to admit)

[macmac]

WW. In the few months you've had a van and wfp your business has expanded rapidlly. This is cause and effect. You invest, you get a return (mainly). That's why it's a business fact.   

Ok, so if i invest 10k in a new van next week how much can i expect my profit to go up this year?
I would like fact please too.

Tony

[NWH]

WW. In the few months you've had a van and wfp your business has expanded rapidlly. This is cause and effect. You invest, you get a return (mainly). That's why it's a business fact.   

Ok, so if i invest 10k in a new van next week how much can i expect my profit to go up this year?
I would like fact please too.

Tony

You cheeky boy lol.