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Paul Coleman

Pricing insides/record keeping
« on: February 10, 2008, 08:05:50 am »
When I very first started in '91, an old W/C told me to quote double for the insides compared to the outsides.  Anyway, the point I have got to is that if the customer clears the sills and removes the nets, I do them for 50% more (i.e. if outside is £10 then inside is additional £15). If the place is heavily smoked in then I will price a lot higher than either of the previous methods.  I have worked like this for years now so know my charges.  I never seemed to make quite as much money doing insides (even before WFP) so maybe the old guy was right all along.

Anyway, I was recently asked by a regular customer if I could do the insides as well next time.  This is due next week.  No problem.  When she phoned on Friday about pre-arranging it I started to talk about money.  It is a £15 job.  I did the insides quite a while ago for an additional £22.50 and told her it would be the same again (total of £37.50).  Anyway, she insisted that I had charged a total of £30 last time I did them and I know this isn't so.  Anyway, I knew I last did the insides around 04/05/06 but couldn't be sure.  I went to the appropriate spreadsheets and found it within a minute by searching for the character string "£37.50".  That doesn't prove to the customer that my record keeping was correct though.  So I went to the box file for the appropriate year and quickly went through the date ordered sheets that contain photocopies of every cheque that goes into my bank account (I print them from my scanner/printer with 3 cheques per side on A4).  I copied the copy and trimmed her copied cheque away from the other two.  I now have a dated and signed photocopy of the cheque she wrote me on October 25th, 2005, clearly showing the amount (£37.50) and signed by her.  It took me under 5 minutes to locate it.
However, on the grounds that no-one likes a smartarse, I'm left wondering about the best way to tackle the situation with her.  I do believe that she was NOT intentionally trying to con me.  I believe this to be a genuine error on her part.  Although the job was fiddly prior to WFP (some small panes), it's an absolute breeze with it (15 minutes).  Also, the customer is the genuine article.  Although never in, her cheque always comes through my letter box within a week of cleaning.  So this is not a job where I'm looking to walk or anything like that.  What I am considering doing is to work for the £30 price "in recognition of customer loyalty" but also show her the photocopied cheque and stress that any future inside cleans would be at the 50% more rate - the same as the October '05 clean was.  I would be within my rights to insist on the £37.50 but sometimes there are better things than being right and insisting on those rights.  I want both of us to come out of this with dignity.  I'm OK with doing it for £30 so long as it's not expected next time and thereafter.
Sorry to be a bit long winded about this but I was wondering if anyone has any other thoughts on this.
N.B.  It has taken me a heck of a lot longer to write this than to find a photocopy of a cheque from 2 and a half years ago.  Perhaps this goes a small way to showing the value of good record keeping.

007 or what

Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2008, 08:24:04 am »
Hi there i would do the same thing as your saying, offer to do it for £30 and show her the chq.
if she's a good egg she'll probably agree to pay you in full.

simon knight

Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2008, 08:25:33 am »
Assuming she's a regular £15 a time customer then I'd do it for £30.

It seems she only wants both sides every couple of years so does the extra £7.50 really matter?

I would take the photocopied cheque along with me to show her if she brings the subject up. But you're right; no good trying to score points!

Davo

  • Posts: 412
Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2008, 08:29:08 am »
 ......I would be within my rights to insist on the £37.50[/font] but sometimes there are better things than being right and insisting on those rights.  I want both of us to come out of this with dignity.  I'm OK with doing it for £30 so long as it's not expected next time and thereafter.
Sorry to be a bit long winded about this but I was wondering if anyone has any other thoughts on this.

Your not within your  rights at all. what you charged her last time is a different matter to what you want to charge this time. Its a totally seperate issue.

Not nit picking, but this is a new contract with new terms and conditions and considerations etc.


Mark


Paul Coleman

Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2008, 08:36:20 am »
......I would be within my rights to insist on the £37.50[/font] but sometimes there are better things than being right and insisting on those rights.  I want both of us to come out of this with dignity.  I'm OK with doing it for £30 so long as it's not expected next time and thereafter.
Sorry to be a bit long winded about this but I was wondering if anyone has any other thoughts on this.

Your not within your  rights at all. what you charged her last time is a different matter to what you want to charge this time. Its a totally seperate issue.

Not nit picking, but this is a new contract with new terms and conditions and considerations etc.


Mark



I take your point Mark.  I suppose she could also try to get the exterior price reduced from £15 to £14 as well in the same way that I'm entitled to ask for an increase to £16.  After all, it's not unknown, in times of extreme economic stress, for an economy to go through deflation rather than inflation (deflation rate of 5% a year for a while in the 1930s).  However, I believe that a reasonable customer would agree that if the work was valued at £37.50 over two years ago, then it would be reasonable to value it at that price again.  However, you are perfectly correct in what you say inasmuch that it is not a right.

Londoner

Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2008, 08:50:10 am »
I think you might as well do it for £30 and not worry too much. Its still better money than working at B+Q.
I always believe I lose money on insides and only do them as a goodwill thing. They always always take longer to do than I estimate for but its still an earner.

I won't do smoked in houses because the windows are always much harder to clean.

Spursboy1972

  • Posts: 679
Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2008, 09:03:31 am »
I think that do it for £30 and take the cheque with you. Be honest but not make a fuss and explain that too.

What I think is more impressive is your atention to detail with records. I am sure lots of people do not go that far and perhaps should! I am one of them.

So hats off to you and any chance of a copy of the spreadsheet you use?

 ;D
Clear Vision~"The Difference is Clear"

Southampton- Hampshire

Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2008, 09:07:25 am »
I thought it was impressive.

Paul Coleman

Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2008, 09:09:33 am »
I think that do it for £30 and take the cheque with you. Be honest but not make a fuss and explain that too.

What I think is more impressive is your atention to detail with records. I am sure lots of people do not go that far and perhaps should! I am one of them.

So hats off to you and any chance of a copy of the spreadsheet you use?

 ;D

I only use MS Works spreadsheet and database.
You are welcome to a template (not actual data of course) of both.
If you supply your email address, I will send you a template with dummy data so you can see how I work it.  It's not rocket science really.  Give me a couple of days or so to sort it out though.  You should have MSWorks if you have a Windows operating system as it often comes free with a new computer.

Paul Coleman

Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2008, 09:14:39 am »
I think that do it for £30 and take the cheque with you. Be honest but not make a fuss and explain that too.

What I think is more impressive is your atention to detail with records. I am sure lots of people do not go that far and perhaps should! I am one of them.

So hats off to you and any chance of a copy of the spreadsheet you use?

 ;D

I only use MS Works spreadsheet and database.
You are welcome to a template (not actual data of course) of both.
If you supply your email address, I will send you a template with dummy data so you can see how I work it.  It's not rocket science really.  Give me a couple of days or so to sort it out though.  You should have MSWorks if you have a Windows operating system as it often comes free with a new computer.

If I get a number of requests for this (as tends to happen on here), I will make the templates available for download from the web to save sending to everyone.  Don't expect a user friendly front end to it.  I designed it to use in a way that I personally would understand but it may give people food for thought as a basis for developing their own templates if mine aren't totally suitable.

Spursboy1972

  • Posts: 679
Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2008, 09:54:16 am »
tony.girdlestone@btinternet.com.

yes I have ms works as came with vista.

Much Aprreciated. I always thought I kept ok records but you have put me to shame!
Clear Vision~"The Difference is Clear"

Southampton- Hampshire

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2008, 11:46:53 am »
Shiner

Do you want an office job.

2 hours a day £10.00 an hour

Dave

Paul Coleman

Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2008, 12:51:59 pm »
Shiner

Do you want an office job.

2 hours a day £10.00 an hour

Dave

I couldn't afford to work for you Dave   ;D

Touché   LOL

Seriously though.  Once i had set up the spreadsheet and database how I wanted them, they were very easy to maintain.  I'm offering to save people with MSWorks the hassle of setting it all up.  When I get in from work of an evening, I spend 5 minutes typing in the work that I've done that day and going through the cheques and marking off who has paid.  In fact, it can often be easier than that because, on the spreadsheet, I can scroll back to where I was doing that part of the round on my previous visit and simply copy/paste into the current part of the sheet.  What makes the database so useful is the way I have set up the report facility to show a printable list of who owes me money and the ability for me to display or print a list of what work is due over the next few days.  I can vary the days as and when required if I need to see further ahead.  Obviously a program like George or RoundPro has a nicer, user friendly front end and is tidier to use - but if you need to make tweaks yourself, it seems easier doing it on a home compiled database/spreadsheet.  Not sure how George or other software cope with this but it is also OK tranferring to other software by using the "export as .csv" function.  So the formulas get lost but the raw data can be transferred and the new formulas set up in the new software as required.

Paul Coleman

Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2008, 12:53:56 pm »
tony.girdlestone@btinternet.com.

yes I have ms works as came with vista.

Much Aprreciated. I always thought I kept ok records but you have put me to shame!

Give me a few days Tony and, depending on how things pan out, I will either email it to you or make available for download.

mark dew

  • Posts: 2901
Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2008, 05:12:18 pm »
can you make available for download paul? I would also be interested to see how you have yours setup.
I also use excel but not access as i use calendar to schedule my work.
I've downloaded trial george and it looks good but i do like the idea of using a spreadsheet. I also run a tight ship admin wise as i do expect to get investigated 1 day. Though it's only since march that i have recorded all cheque details and payments.

Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2008, 05:29:25 pm »
You will be the subject of an enquiry at some stage. They are getting rid of support staff and freeing up more inpectors because IT is starting to make the whole thing more efficient. It's a good use of resources to look at the likes of us when we've been going a few years because it usually ends with a bill. There are three or four additional  tests apart from your books being okay.

mark dew

  • Posts: 2901
Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2008, 05:37:51 pm »
There are three or four additional  tests apart from your books being okay.

I don't know anything about investigations apart from what i've read on here so i  have more info on record than my accountant needs.
What are the additional tests? Forewarned is forearmed and all that.


Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2008, 06:04:48 pm »
An investigation is quite serious, you are more likely to get an enquiry.Most likely they would be interested in the cash part of your business. Cheques and internet payments are fairly straightforward.

A cash test might look at the cash you pay yourself as drawings and match this against your cash outgoings for the relevant year.

They are quite fair, use common sense, and know that people make genuine mistakes.

mark dew

  • Posts: 2901
Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2008, 06:14:43 pm »
Thanks for that. That sounds ok.
The only thing that makes me worry is that posters have mentioned they have had to pay a lot of money to their accountant for their help in the investigation. I'm detailing everything in the hope that i can satisfy their questions myself without having my accountant going through everything again.
I'm good in the respect of declaring my income as i have a self cert mortgage where my declared potential income for the year was higher than it actually ended up. I have and will declare every penny i earn until i've got a net income that meets or exceeds this amount. Which will be next year now instaed of this year.

paulscotney

Re: Pricing insides/record keeping
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2008, 06:35:47 pm »
I think I am correct in saying that The federation of small businesses will pay any additional accountancy costs incurred as a result of an Inland Revenue investigation if you are a member. Memebership is about £100pa