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Polepro

Re: N.F.M.W & G.C New
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2003, 06:21:14 pm »
Andrew,

Thank you for your frank and honest reply, after all your hard work it must be a disapointment that the NVQ does not seem to have been promoted well. Reading your other posts its clear that your a reputable chap a sad loss to the Fed.

Why do you think that their is not so much interest in anyone going for the whole NVQ qualification, is it too hard? Why don't the Fed promote the NVQ?

Tom

STEVE71163

Re: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2003, 07:22:06 pm »
Andrew,
           Am i right in thinking that the full NVQ for window cleaners is about £1000  ???

Steve Lowe

Andrew

Re: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2003, 03:30:19 pm »
Thank you for your frank and honest reply, after all your hard work it must be a disapointment that the NVQ does not seem to have been promoted well. Until I joined this forum I'd never even heard of the window cleaning NVQ.  Reading your other posts its clear that your a reputable chap a sad loss to the Fed.  Why do you think that their is not so much interest in anyone going for the whole NVQ qualification, is it too hard? Why don't the Fed promote the NVQ?

Tom


after all your hard work it must be a disapointment that the NVQ does not seem to have been promoted well.

In general terms I feel a measure of disappointment but mixed with a helping of disbelief as well in the way things have gone. Your point though is about disappointment as regards promotion.

I jumped at the chance to get my own window cleaning NVQ as soon as they came out.  I saw them as a means, "at last" to differentiate myself, has a professional window cleaner, from the less reputable.  I never expected window cleaners en masse to take up NVQ's but i thought there would be lots of others like me, who would want them for the same reason.

Promotions-wise a lot was/is done, advertising and editorially wise.  . I don’t think most individual training centres for the cleaning industry promote the window cleaning NVQ though simply because they lack the expertise (a combination of window cleaning skills using such things as cherry pickers, cradles and travelling gantries along with the required NVQ assessor qualification) with which to provide them.  Perhaps the best marketing material came from the British Window Cleaning Academy, though a lot of editorial was produced too by myself through the Federation's Window Talk magazine and other trade literature. The Cleaning Industry National Training Organisation has produced literature referring to window cleaning NVQ's as well.  Moffat’s in Scotland are a good source for the Scottish VQ.

Why do you think that their is not so much interest in anyone going for the whole NVQ qualification, is it too hard?

NVQ’s are not too hard for the people they are meant for.  The core purpose of an NVQ is to confirm and certify an individual’s competence.  If someone is new to the trade and has a lot to learn strictly speaking an NVQ is not for them.  NVQ’s are designed as an assessment of competence.  While NVQ’s are commonly used as a training mechanism by many colleges and other training centres, that was not their original purpose. Of course NVQ assessment will show up areas of occupational competence that require improvement, and the NVQ standards themselves need to be explained to the candidate, but that is not the same thing.

It is commonly accepted that the choice as to whether whole NVQ’s should be worked for or not should be left to the judgement of the candidate and/or their employer.  This recognition is built into the NVQ system.  They call it “Unit Accreditation”.  Additional units can be sort later.  Sometimes in certain circumstances the full NVQ may not be relevant.  A window cleaner that lives his working life on a cradle for example may not be interested in units that address other areas of competence such as ladders or cherry pickers for example – or visa versa.  However that same window cleaner would probably find the cradle unit invaluable as a means to providing formally recognised evidence of his knowledge, skill and experience.

Why don't the Fed promote the NVQ?

It’s interesting to see you have the impression the Fed doesn’t! The Fed has promoted NVQ’s to a point but I think if you examined the facts for yourself you would conclude that they have also been unhelpful, awkward, and obstructive about them.

In past years Executive Committee members gave up copious amounts of time, without any sort of pay, or remuneration, in the initial development of NVQ’s.  Window Talk carried articles on NVQ’s.  The Federation made provision for what was essentially an NVQ booth at each of its annual trade shows.  They sponsored me to represent them in their promotion and development.

With respect to the, “unhelpful, awkward, and obstructive” aspect I would be more than very interested to hear from any Federation member, that anyone might be able to refer me to, that accepted the Federation’s offer of an NVQ, that appeared in the October 2002 Window Talk (p.10, 11) I am interested to know whether the matter was just left or whether the Federation gave them a reason for not going ahead with the scheme, and if the Federation, gave a reason what that reason was. I am also interested to know what happened with the Scottish VQ's.

Andrew from Edu-Clean

Andrew

Re: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2003, 04:06:35 pm »
Am i right in thinking that the full NVQ for window cleaners is about £1000  

Steve Lowe


There is no fixed cost for an NVQ . What you would be charged is for your NVQ provider to decide.  

As a practicing window cleaner, with the mind of a window cleaner, someone asking me how much an NVQ costs is like someone asking me how much it costs to clean a house … or a shop front … or an office block etc.   The answer depends on a number of variables that need to be looked at first.

Referring to my own business Edu-Clean, we look at where the potential NVQ candidate might be, how many there are in the same place, and how many areas of competence we might be able to assess per visit and such like.

The £1000 figure might come from a provider who requires you to go to them and has a rigid programme of activity.  We go to the work site of the candidate and plan before hand to make the delivery of the NVQ as economic to the client as possible.  If both parties demonstrate flexibility usually good savings can be made.

Andrew from Edu-Clean

STEVE71163

Re: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2003, 04:23:02 pm »
Hi Andrew,
               Thanks for the reply. So if their is no set procedure or standard that needs to be met what would be the point of going for it in the first place ???

Steve

Rob_B

  • Posts: 248
Re: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2003, 04:45:16 pm »
If people harp on about spending £45 for membership of the Fed, I can't see too many people forking out a grand for an NVQ, after all, just as many people have ask me if I have an NVQ as they have if I'm in the fed. Nobody!

g_griffin

Re: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2003, 04:58:57 pm »
i agree,people just want a good job doing for as little as possible.

andy

Re: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2003, 10:28:31 pm »
Thats whats lacking in this industry! no body is really prepared to spend money and train as much as possible to make this a recognised industry to work in.

ITS LIKE A TREND! The customer doesent care because they know that they are only a window cleaner.

If people got trained up! after a while bad window cleaners would drop away and the the industry can start charging more.

It would be good to also see pro window cleaners get togeather and do big promotions around the country.

WE NEED TO START MAKING A THING THAT EVERYONE DOES AND HAVE TO DO.

LIKE HOVERING YOU FLOOR 2-3 TMES A WEEK!

ANDY!

Rob_B

  • Posts: 248
Re: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2003, 10:43:05 pm »
I have got all my work through word of mouth of me doing a good job.

I clean everybodys windows like they were my own including wiping down the frames.

It is because of this that I have more work than I can possibly do at the moment, and why the majority of my customers dropped their "on the side money for a pint" window cleaners. 70% have their windows cleaned fortnightly and they don't mind me charging more than others because they get a good job done.

Polepro

Re: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2003, 01:21:36 pm »
Rob is right, people pay for the service they recieve rather than the act of having their windows cleaned. poeple who want good service know that you need to make enough money to cover your holidays, sick days, bad weather days and your pension, They're not so much paying to have their windows cleaned so much as paying someone they like and trust around their property to come back and do it again and again. If only some of your customers are like this you need to filter your customer base and only add quality customers to your round. Of course quality customers deserve a quality service and you must provide this and continuously strive to improve your service by looking at the lates innovations and taking trianing on board when it is offered. If window cleaners are appethetic then those who serve them will also become appethetic.

Tom

Andrew

Re: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2003, 03:48:12 pm »
So if their is no set procedure or standard that needs to be met what would be the point of going for it in the first place

I'm not sure how you arrived at that the above conclusion from what i wrote you.  If there is something i need to re-explained please let me know  :)

I understood your question to be about NVQ fees, and nothing more.

If "their is no set procedure or standard that needs to be met",  i agree there certainly would not be any, "point of going for it in the first place".

Andrew form Edu-Clean

STEVE71163

Re: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2003, 04:02:05 pm »
Hi Andrew,
               What i was trying to say but did not put over properly was  Does everyone start an NVQ at the same point and if not what does an NVQ actually count for? If i was to start a course at college say with computers for a recognised qualification no matter how much i knew i would still have to start from the beginning.

Steve Lowe

Re: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2003, 08:03:54 pm »
Hi all
I joined the Fed on the 2nd October 2003. Today I had a couple of problems regarding health and safety wanted to get some help with my logo.
When I called I spoke to someone about the HSE problems and got some great advice (problem over) and expecting some paper work regarding the problem too. Then spoke to another department and spoke to ken in the office and he too was really friendly and helpful.
I believe there is good and bad in any organisation at home/ away etc, and easy to jump on the band wagon and get involved with all the politics and the dirt.
I personally would rather not get involved I called them today and the help I got was excellent. (And this is not blowing smoke up anyone’s arse credit where credits due)
Where else could you get direct help like that its like your own citizens advise.
If you have not tried it don’t knock it and people in glasshouses and all that

Cheers
Alan

gibbouk

  • Posts: 171
Re: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2003, 08:27:27 pm »
i am sorry but i see no need for an nvq in window cleaning for us experianced window cleaners.
a few years ago my brother had a visit from the nvq representitive. telling him  about the importance of a nvq qualification. a mechanic with a full aprentership and 12 years experiance. he took the exam and said it was a complete waste of time as anyone with a interest in mechanics could have passed it. basicly it was a money generator for the college. so when he went for a job with a major vechile engineering company did they ask for his nvq........ no. maybe they would like to teach my grannie to suck eggs as well

Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2003, 09:02:31 pm »
;)I must say the nvq thingy is ok if you want to blow about a grand :o it was only 1995 I knew of the nat fed
meeting on a show called BBC record Breakers,none
other than a chap called a Mr Bisley and Mick wilde from
syr I had been window cleaning for some 20 years ::)
and only just found out about the fed! ;) there is still much work to be done,to make the window cleaning world a safe and a good one,not that it isnt ;)what I am
trying to say is ,the normal window cleaner does not give a dam about nvqs,as someone said a good job,for the correct price,is all that counts these days! ;)the interest simply does not seem to be there,you can take a horse to water ;)but you cant make it drink :Pget me drift ;D
WWW.FASTESTWINDOWCLEANER.CO.UK
GUINNESS WORLD RECORD HOLDER
BURNING RUBBER FASTER!
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF MASTER WINDOW CLEANERS.

Re: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2003, 09:12:43 pm »
Hi all
Today I spoke to a couple of the local councils about doing tender work and what did they ask?
What training and qualifications did I have?
This is the same for the H&S never been asked till
recently.
So will it be in time that the bigger companies will want to see contractors hold these qualifications.
Will these be a way of separating the processional company to the chap working on the side?
Who knows?
But tell you something times are changing

Cheers
Alan

Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2003, 09:16:12 pm »
;)I think you are correct to say that ;)in another 5 to 10 years I think you will see it! ???
WWW.FASTESTWINDOWCLEANER.CO.UK
GUINNESS WORLD RECORD HOLDER
BURNING RUBBER FASTER!
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF MASTER WINDOW CLEANERS.

atRe: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2003, 09:55:34 pm »
Hi again
I have noticed change in other industries I learned about drainage a while ago so I could offer a larger cleaning service and over the last 4 years the business has changed completely.
With H&S and training, environmental issues, this to will knock on to our business emptying water down drains (S/W) doing wash downs if using chemical where does the water go down the drain all stuff like that.
Training to show you’re competent etc etc
Could insurance companies also ask for proof of training?

Who knows
Alan


The_Fed_Man

  • Posts: 182
Re: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2003, 10:24:52 pm »
Alan,

Some insurance companies are now asking for Health & Safety policies and details of Staff training, documentation etc. before offering Employers Liability Insurance, this is new to me this year.

Single operators will probably be able to get their Public Liability Insurance from the Banks for some years to come, but it is definitely a different market now for Employers.  I can see some sort of certification in the future.

Martin Warman
Executive Council Member
N.F.M.W& G.C.
Martin Warman
Executive Council Member N.F.M.W & G.C.
www.nfmwgc.com

Mikey Warner

  • Posts: 254
Re: N.F.M.W & G.C
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2003, 10:31:09 pm »
Hey guy's! I thought i'd seen the last of the dreaded NVQ when I jacked my job in at the weekend!!  ::)

To me, a holder of 4 NVQ's they mean Jack Poop! Two of the NVQ's that I have basically qualify me of walking onto a factory floor and emptying powder into containers  ??? ::)

The Company I left (a very well known food factory), look at seem to regard NVQ's higher than City & Guilds/time served tradesmen. As an example There was a fitter/engineer i worked with. He had 20 years experience in "airliner" engineering, repairing, checking them before flights etc. 15 years working on factory machinery. Then he was told he had to do an NVQ in engineering to prove he knew what he was doing basically??? ??? ??? and if he did not complete or pass this he would loose his job!! figure that out???

As I see it, if you were to do an NVQ for window cleaning it would take about 4 pages of checks and questions just to put your applicator in and out of your holster!!

If anyone does not know what nvq questionaires look like i'd be happy to scan them and forward them to you if you wanted to see what they involve just out of interest.

Mikey