[Alan Brooker. Aqualink Carpet Care]

On another thread about agitation of prespray's the point is made that it's not necesarry when using a truckmount.
.....This is a serious thread and I don't want it breaking out into W.W 3.
Without resorting to TM vs Porty attitudes please can someone explain how a truckmount running at 300psi can create sufficient agitation to warrant leaving the Host/ Envirodri on the van? Porty owners (like myself) operate at 400 - 500 psi usually following intensive prespray agitation while truckmounters work at 300psi and claim better results? I know a lot of TM owners have moved on from porty's and so can make a comparison whereas not so many current porty users have experienced a TM first hand.
Please use reason and logic in your responses.

Thanks
Alan

[Jason Hedges]

Hi Alan,

Interesting and valid post!

I upgraded to a t/m a few months ago after my last portable (500psi triple vac). The reason for upgrading for me was speed not quality of work.

As well as speed of work having instant HOT water as most will agree is a real advantage to the cleaning process.

At 500psi with my old porty I would be emptying and re-filling after every room, not any more!

I still achieve great results (in my humble opinion) but in less time.

I still use between 250-500psi same as last porty.

I still pre-vac most carpets removing heavy dust and major debris.

I still agitate using envirodri on really trashed carpets or heavily solied areas.

I do not achieve better results, I do however achieve the same results faster and with better drying times.

The reason for the faster work times are because I'm no longer loading and un-loading a porty out of my van for every job, not looking for power supplies, not filling with hopefully hot water (if cold waiting to heat up) and not measuring out and mixing relevant rinse agent with every bucket into machine and not emptying and re-filling machine after every room cleaned.

Now I pre-vac (when needed), prespray 1,2 or 3 areas (depending on size) pull hoses from van, start up t/m, prespray next areas to be cleaned and start extracting on first areas sprayed, working back towards van all the time, pre-spraying areas 10-15 mins before expected extraction time.

Sounds harsh but using a t/m is a lot faster, I am doing twice as much work in the same time with my new machine as before with a top end porty. Not necessarily better results just faster working and drying times using the same methods.

*Must add - I did an equally good quality job with every porty I've owned, just took longer the lower powered machine used

Hope this helps.

All the best,
Jason.

[liahona]

The main differences between a porty at say 400 psi and a truckmount at 400 psi is the volume of water being moved.  There is in most cases no comparison  between the two.  The reason a truckmount doesnt need the carpet agitated is that the sheering power of 400 psi at the volume a truckmount provides is all the agitation the carpet needs.

Porty at 400 psi is just simply not the same as a truckmount at 400 psi. if you are going to compare one against te other then compare the volume, not the psi.

Not only that but with regards the way most people agitate, rotary brush or similar will void any guarentee that the textile may or may not have.

This country you have a treatments risk cover which can cover damage that a tech can maybe do to a carpet.

In the states, if you rotaried a wool carpet no insurance would cover the damage that "could" be caused as they would think you were a knuckle head in the first place as you should no better.  Under no circumstances should carpets be agitated in this way and deep down those doing so know that they shouldnt be.  Nor should a carpet be cleaned this way either, especially wool.

No carpet manufacturer will advise agitation in this way, agitation, yes but this is generally accepted as light brushing as you would a protector.

Contrary to popular belief, low profile manufacturers actuall say not to useing a rotary on their textiles or again it will void their gaurentee.

They suggest to clean their carpets correctly a hwe system should be used and explain the reasons why.

There are people who will argue they get good or better results with a low moisture and or rotary type system than a truckmount.  While I am not doubting there findings it is still not the correct way to clean a wall to wall carpet.

We all have things to learn and I understand things change from day to day let alone year to year.  But to my knowledge no cleaning courses will suggest rotary mechanical agitation to assist in cleaning a carpet.

Best, Dave.

P.S.  Alan, go out with someone if you can to use a truckmount and see for yourself.  If you like I will do a job with you and you an use my truckmount.  Or you can clean your own house with it and then compare the difference.......





Why do you think Chem Dry ended up changing their entire cleaning process

[Jason Hedges]

Dave,

Speak English for god's sake???

I'd like a lesson with you as well!!!!!

[*paul_moss]

Jas cant u sleep

[*paul_moss]

Alan im not quite sure of the physics behind it but when i used a porty at 300 psi there was not as much power hitting the carpet as there is now on using the truck at 300 psi.I can only guess like Dave has said it is the volume or pressure behind it , may be in comparrison to a mini hitting a wall at 30 mph to a lorry hitting a wall at 30 mph, which will have most impact ?

[Derek_Walker]

I think Jason put it very well in his post. I believe agitation is an important part of the cleaning pie as long as it is not doing any damage to the carpet pile. I use the enviro dry machine with the gold brushes which are really soft this is mainly to distribute the pre spray throughout the pile to reach all the dirt. This will also bring up the fibres making it easier for the rinsing action to work. To be honest manufacturers also recommend regular use of an upright vacuum cleaner which obviously uses a brushing action this would cause more damage than my enviro dry machine with regular use. I guess at the end of the day it depends what you are working on, if you are cleaning a carpet which costs thousands of pounds or an heirloom then agitation would not be advisable.
My truckmount will remove more spots with less effort than the portable but in most cases like Jason said, pre-conditioning is the main key to success.

[Ian Rochester]

Being a newbie to TM cleaning, I totally concur with Jason, the job is done so much faster using a TM.

Even without a prespray, a single pass with my Prowler at 400psi will often cut straight through heavy traffic areas and remove bad stains, whereas in the past I would have needed to pre-spray,agitate,wait, extract and even repeat the process with my Extracta Exel.

I had to bring the Exel out yesterday for a job up in a block of flats, three weeks ago I would have been quite happy with the time it took and the performance of the machine, not yesterday, the water flow and vacuum were miniscule compared to the Prowler, it took three refills of the tank with water that was only just over 40^oc and probably took me an hour longer than if I could have accessed it with the Prowler.

I've never used a 500psi porty, but the sheer sheering power of the prowler at that pressure is pretty awesome and the wand sticks to the floor with the power of the vac.

Every one of my estabished customers, who I have been to since getting the Prowler are VERY IMPRESSED with it's cleaning ability, the speed of the clean and how dry the carpets are left.

[John Kelly]

Alan, sorry I haven't got back to you yet. I still haven't found a definative answer to your question re blowers. Been hectic with moving premises and flood work.

As regards your question I can reiterate what has been said in that most truckmounts utilise a pressure washer pump which which have pistons which provide the mechanical pressure on the water. Also the higher volumes of water passing through create more flushing action.

[Alan Brooker. Aqualink Carpet Care]

Thankyou all for your posts. Here's the bit that I don't get: the spray tip at the wand head will release a certain flow at a given pressure to which point spray systems have a table that shows this info. Increase the PRESSURE and the flow goes up but they don't seem to indicate that you can increase the flow without increasing either a: the orifice size or b: the pressure.
Any thoughts?

Alan

[Mike Halliday]

 Alan I always have to read your post twice to see what your saying because you never say what you mean, why not just say what you mean 

eg;

300psi going through a 01 jet whether you are using a T/m pump or a portable pump will be exactly the same

yes you are right. the only way to increase flow is to increase the number of the jets, increase their size. or increase the psi ( if the pumps maximum flow ouput has'nt already been reached)

 Mike

[Mike Halliday]

to get back to your original question, why do some T/M owners say they don't need to agitate?

firstly you need to look at why do we agitate, 2 reasons to revitalise the pile and to distribute the pre-pray so it comes into contact with all the soil..

if we look at the first one with the arrival of glides you cant really scrub up the pile without prior agitation so a T/M won't perform any better than a portable in this case ( although some may say the powerful vac of a t/m can raise the pile)

secondly to distribute the pre-spray, it doesn't matter what machine you use  the pre-spray need to come into contact with the soil.

so to answer you question, how can  I clean better than a portable if I don't agitate, firstly the most important word is clean 'the maximum removal of soil'  I do this with heat-flow-recovery my machine is capable of;

1) extreme heat,  modern chemicals don't need heat I hear you bleat (BAaa......Baaaa....Baaaa) yes but they need massive amounts of agitation I use hot water not warm as is used by a portable. I've just moved onto a diesel burner from a heat exchanger and I have seen the difference real hot water makes to cleaning, it obliterates the dirt, most people on here have never cleaned with real hot water, so don't know the difference, they think the warm is hot...it is'nt.


2)very high flow, big jets + high capacity pump pushing out hot water ( see No1 above)

3)massive vacuum power. enough vacuum power to recover  the massive amount off solution I've put on the carpet.

I'm getting bored of typing now...

Mike

[richie]

Im pretty sure & am convinced that all thyis agitation that many talk about cant be good for certain types of carpet.  99% of the time when using a TM there is no need to go over 300 psi water pressure.  This is due to its high flow rate water pump.  Also as already stated,  due to the right amount of heat plus high recovery that a TM is capable of carpets can be clean with no chemical although i wouldnt advise this.  Yes you can possibly clean carpets with a porty as well as if using a TM however,  if cleaning a really soiled carpet all the pre-spray, agitation & sheer volume of water you would have to use with a porty would not be a good thing.  A TM with its high heat, high water flow and high recovery would do the job quicker and without all the hassle and hard work. 

Richie.

[PaulKing]

The simple answer,

Try using a TM then you'll get the picture.

[Ian Rochester]

Got to agree.........from being a non believer and thinking that my machine was as good as any TM............I am now a firm convert!

Praise be!!

[liahona]

Mike, now you know why I have such a high opinion on fuel burners.  Untill you use one you would have thought that heat exchangers worked well.

Ditto to what Paul King has suggested. 

Best, Dave.

Alan, I will still clean a carpet for you if you want to see the difference between your machine and a truckmount.   We could clean side by side?.........  Where are you as I cant get your web site up?


 

[Mike Halliday]

Dave when you hear the crack of steam as you pull the trigger and  see the results as you pull the wand across the carpet, you realise the power of real heat

I'm trying to source a smaller burner, the one I use at the moment will heat 18lt/min to pure stream so is massively overkill and is quite large.

Mike

[Len Gribble]

Alan

You are more than welcome to use mine (entry level) the same applies to any local CC.

Len

[Alan Brooker. Aqualink Carpet Care]

Alan I always have to read your post twice to see what your saying because you never say what you mean, why not just say what you mean 

eg;

300psi going through a 01 jet whether you are using a T/m pump or a portable pump will be exactly the same


 Mike

Mike If I make a statement like that I'll have half the truckmounting community on here kicking up a fuss.
I'm putting my own design of machine together in the summer - a one off. Some of the componentry won't be cheap but a) it's a project that I'm looking forward to,  b) It'll last me for keeps and c) If I design / build it right first time round then I won't be looking to upgrade at a future point.
This is the reason for some of my round the houses persistent questions - I'm not looking to wind anyone up I just want real life opinions of techs that use effective equipment.

Now then ... Dave - what jet sizes are you using at your 300psi pressure, how many jets and what flow is your pump putting out?

Also I've got a spare Ebaspacher diesel heater £800 worth. What do you reckon I need to do to cook up my water?

Alan

[David Ware]

Alan
I use a Truckmount mainly for carpet cleaning. A main benifit is that I use a detergent pre spray using a in line hydraforce sprayer, this allows a ''heated'' pre spray of a traffic lane cleaner that starts the saponification reaction that helps break up the soil for removal. On most occasions a dewell time is all that is necessary. Using a hydraforce you will put down more (being the correct pre spray) not misted.
Most Truckmount users will be cleaning with softend water another benifit when cleaning.
A meeting recently with a carpet inspector said that a non brush type vacum cleaner should be used to stop claims against the cleaning operative.

David Ware