[jikwan]

in my experience  the closer to horizontal the better
seems like you cant get a decent splay unless theres some real force behind it
ibelieve you insist on swivle head
that optimizes it further?

[Jeff Brimble]

Its something I have just got used to but never measured but defo not 90 degrees to the glass. Will nip out and see what I can come up with, bearing inmind that I use light modulars which are different because the heavy telescopics weigh presses them against the glass. Even so when I used the Ungers and the Ergo I still prefered water to travek back to the stock than run from the stock to the bristle ends.
Swivels are a whole topic by themselves.
I think we may all have different answers, maybe a poll ? What do others with experience think ?

[jikwan]

have hardly heard the term  swivel   on forums
cant be many

[Davew]

If youv'e got a swivel you can use your pole at every angle from zero to ninety degrees in the vertical plane and forty five from the side. Spin your pole and the angles swop over if you see what i mean. Vertical becomes horizontal.

[Jeff Brimble]

OK we could be here all night with this one Jik as it may be more complicated than at first thought.

Its also probably going to cost me another box of choccies  : After compliants from my Mrs about the brushes all over the spare room for the brush pics, I had just taken them all down to the shed and bought her a box to pacify her.  Now I have sneaked them all back up again to play with  :

The first movement of swivel (my term) of any brush should be the angle off adjustment from 0-180 if possible to allow for example adjusting for cleaning cills or adjustment for cleaning the base of patio windows without having to turn the brush upside down, or cleaning horizontally at a distance over a flar roof, for example. If you have a brush thats capable of this range of instant movement by simple leverage with your hand then all the angles can be used. (Not many have)

If you are close to the horizontal when working directly at the same height as yourself, as you suggest you find that you need more pressure to get the bristles to splay (my term) for eg the Bentley, but the addis needs less pressure. This splay allows cleaning into the right angles and bevels of window frames and corners etc. Or when using a brush that wont swivel in the other required direction, to use the splay of the brush when fixed to the head, to clean with the ends of the brush when at an angle going over conservatories or roofs to the left ot right.

The angle of attack is something that all floor brushmakers must have considered more than us when using the brush effectively on the floor.
(back in a bit running out of steam)

[jikwan]

so a very rough example of swivel is the angle adjuster(pole to brush)
screw in=teeth connect
screw out very loose=swivel action?

[jikwan]

oh wait a minute

just what i said plus it spins around in a circle (just likeskyblue poles)

[Jeff Brimble]

Ok another controversial statement. The fastest way to clean glass with a brush is sometimes to hold it in your hand and not on a pole. This is because when close up to the glass at arms length the brush can be swivelled by using your wrist. Your brain allows the universal joint that is your wrist to change the angle at the speed of thought. However for out of hand reach work a pole is needed but not always faster as your own body can restrict the movement when working close to the surface.
When working at height the angle of movement is generally a natural up and down with the whole arm joints acting as the universal joints at the base of the pole, this is where Jiks optimum angle now becomes very important. Getting the brush to splay (and I know splay is not something everyone agrees on) is more difficult. The splay allows more glass coverage with the bent ends of the bristles reaching further and also cleaning with the sides.
At one time I thought that crinkle bristles would be fantastic but found the Salmon hygene range to be too stif to allow splay. Have a look at a Boars head carwash brush or a long bristled paint brush if you want to see splay.

Right, Angles or rightangles  
Lets say the bristles on most brushes spread gradually out from the centre at a slight incline of 8 degrees to the stock, with the cntre row at 90 degrees to the stock, this is to allow the edges to splay when dust brushing floors and get in the corners, but  a deckbrush needs no splay because it needs to scrub. The handle of the brush is fixed into the stock at  angle suitable for floors so that pressure can be applied vertically lets call the stock angle 20 degrees (anyone agree or disagree ? ) but not always ideal for our use because we need to apply pressure against the glass with the pole at say a further 15  degrees. This all becomes even more important when using extreme light poles at height. You may not be able to apply pressure.

So I angle the bristles slightly upwards allowing all the bristles to splay in the same direction flattening onthe glass slightly, then using the upward friction of the bristles only to do the scrubing work, the downward pull generally only squeegeeing  the dirt and the water back down the glass.
Whats the angle? I guess 45 degrees.

Hope this all helps. Its not by any means complete any other input, arguments etc.  Alex ?

Its great to have someone else thinking and questioning the process through Jikwan, Sir. (and anyone else like Dave I missed out.)

[Jeff Brimble]

oh wait a minute

just what i said plus it spins around in a circle (just likeskyblue poles)

Yes you got it       ;)but it has to do it on an angled joint of say 25 degrees, not a straight pole. Try it.

[Davew]

Jeff, have you tried the Addis? I seem to have the only one that works. The higher i go the easier mine seems to splay due to the extra weight/pressure from the pole and with my svivel i can scrub by twisting my pole which gives a figure of eight motion on the glass. I'm sure Alex must have used one by now.(unless of course his new brush is an Addis under that Gardiners sticker).

[Village Gleam]

Jeff the answer is easy.
The brush should abutt the glass face on.

Beyond that the neck angle plays a part but there is probably an optimum working range where the further away from parralel the  more force is applied. But the greater force less speed, therefore a compromise is required. Most times this will be in the ratio from the ground of four up one across.

And this will vary from individual to individual.

[Alex Gardiner]

Jeff, have you tried the Addis? I seem to have the only one that works. The higher i go the easier mine seems to splay due to the extra weight/pressure from the pole and with my svivel i can scrub by twisting my pole which gives a figure of eight motion on the glass. I'm sure Alex must have used one by now.(unless of course his new brush is an Addis under that Gardiners sticker).

   if I could get away with that - I would!  I have tried the Addis brush over two years ago but found that the bristles were just too soft for my liking. They were nice bristle texture but didn't work scrubbing the glass.

A lot of the brush angle issue depends on the angle that you like to hold the pole at.  Some people like to work closer to the building more vertically, others like to stand back a bit working at more of an angle.  We found that generally a good all round angle for the brush head is if you hold your pole vertical, the bristle face should be at 45 degrees.  As Jeff said, if the bristles are pointing slightly upwards in use, they do seem to work better.

A problem I find with working with a brush in my hand (on a short stalk) is that it makes your forearm very tired after just a few windows.  I find the shortest pole I like to use is 5ft actual length. With this I can do all ground floor windows quickly and simply and allow my pole and my wrist to control movement across the glass rather than have to move my body overly (I'm lazy by nature).  Just my thoughts.

[jikwan]

wait a bit dave maybe my addis is ok  problem  could be im not using brush properly
the way i apply it might be off

[Davew]

Thanks Alex i thought you would have tried one. Thats pretty much what i am thinking too - it's a pretty good brush but probably won't have much power when i need it. I haven't tried a first clean or a really filthy window yet.

[Jeff Brimble]

Heres a cutaway pic of my optimum angle for scrubbing and how the brush footprint changes by a slight pressure. The brush is an Addis and does have good scrubbing power, whilst also reducing spotting problems. May have to do a daylight pic as you cannot see the black bristles.

[L.J.Thorpe]

sorry but am i missing something is this an in joke i dont get or is there a real point to all this  optimum angle ? splay??? if the windows are clean and customer happy what is prob also angle of "attack" is governed to some degree by surroundings ie nearby walls fences etc you reach em as best you can and as quickly surely is it that important also do certain brushes cause spotting if so which so i can avoid in future???

[windowwashers]

Heres a cutaway pic of my optimum angle for scrubbing and how the brush footprint changes by a slight pressure. The brush is an Addis and does have good scrubbing power, whilst also reducing spotting problems. May have to do a daylight pic as you cannot see the black bristles.

you should really stop bitting your nails 

what brush is that by the way? it looks like one i got from tesco a few weeks back ?

[jikwan]

bravo jeff

this is going to shake the wfp world

i do believe most are using 360 splay method

interesting experiment.......

find a window with 2 baked on flycrap a foot or two apart
use your method on one and 360 splay on the other
no flycrap worth the name would stand a chance
should be proof enough