[DASERVICES]

We thought it wise to inform window cleaners in Scotland of the latest happenings as it will effect all who operate in licensed areas.

The SLWCN objective has been to get the authorities to regulate the licence and have it enforced the as window cleaners who are licensed receive nothing in return. We have now have a good link into all Councils, Scottish Executive, SOLAR and ACPOS.

Through this we now have a better understanding on the legal side and why Councils have not enforced it. As you are aware or not the Civic Government ( Scotland ) Act 1982 covers the licensing of window cleaners where a Council chooses to operate it.

Under c 45 section 43 states :-  A licence, to be known as a “window cleaner’s licence” shall be required for carrying on the trade of, or being employed as, a window cleaner.

Section 7-  (1) states : - Any person who without reasonable excuse does anything for which a licence is required under Part II of this Act without having such a licence shall be guilty of an offence and liable, on summary conviction
 
(b) in any other case,], to a fine not exceeding [F2 level 4 on the standard scale].
 
Section 2 - (1) states :- For the administration of licensing in relation to the activities in connection with which licences are required under Part II of this Act there shall be a licensing authority for [F1 the area of each local authority].
 
(2) The licensing authority shall be the [F2 local authority]within whose area the activity is, or is to be, carried on.

In summary it is a legal requirment to be licensed to carry out the trade of window cleaning, those who are caught without a licence can be fined, each licensing authority a licence is required.  A licence from one area will not cover you for other areas, you need to have a seperate licence.

Councils realise that this is a burden for window cleaners but this is out of their domain to change. This lies with SOLAR who we will in future be holding talks with.

The enforcing of the licence  lies with the Police who will be soon looking into this in some Council areas. Here lies the problem for those who are unlicensed and hence this statement as it will effect you.

Please be aware that the SLWCN are not here to name and shame but to highlight the problem that the window cleaning licence is not working. It is up to the authorities to find the ones that are breaking the law.

The problem an unlicensed window cleaner will face if he is stopped that they can be forced NOT TO WORK whilst they have no licence. This means you could be not earning for a month as this is how long it takes to complete your application. You also have the risk of going to court and being fined. THIS IS ACTUAL FACT AS IT DOES HAPPEN.

This is the last thing I would want but there is nothing we can do to prevent it as the law above states it. The licence was brought in by the Police not the Council and it is law, it is up to each individuals conscience if they are happy about breaking the law.

Yes the Councils are not running it properly , yes it should be publicised ( Council officials agree with this ). Hopefully things will change in the future which we are working on for the Councils to regonise us as a body. For those who say what about plumbers etc.. that may effect them in the future as well but no comment from me on this

In summary it is LAW that you have to have a licence , if caught you could be stopped from working. We thought it best to provide you with this information.

Doug

[williamx]

Is it only window cleaners who need a licence to earn a living or do other trades ( painters & decorator-plumbers-washing machine repairmen-mobile mechanics-mobile hairdressers plus the other trades who come to your home) have to have them?

If not then why are window cleaners being singled out?

What law was passed in parliment that makes it a crinimal offence to earn a living without a licence?

What happens if the window cleaner does not pay his fine? will he go to prison? or will the bailiffs empty his home? or if they can't find goods to cover the cost of the fine do they reposse his home.

Why do you need a licence? whats wrong with the police going back on the beat and try catching a burglar or two.

If its to stop a benefit cheat why not use a correct punishment, say 5 to 10 years without parole

[DASERVICES]

Is it only window cleaners who need a licence to earn a living or do other trades ( painters & decorator-plumbers-washing machine repairmen-mobile mechanics-mobile hairdressers plus the other trades who come to your home) have to have them?

There are other trades that require a licence that I know of, taxi driver, wheelie bin washer, any catering / coffee van. The taxi drivers have their own licence, the others come under street traders. I have heard that car valetors will soon come under this, there is nothing stopping the council bringing the other trades under this. The street traders licence also exists in England. The window cleaning licence is under a seperate law.

If not then why are window cleaners being singled out?

Because window cleaners have access to peoples property on a regular basis, whereas a painter will more than likely come to your property the once

What law was passed in parliment that makes it a crinimal offence to earn a living without a licence?

Section 7-  (1) states : - Any person who without reasonable excuse does anything for which a licence is required under Part II of this Act without having such a licence shall be guilty of an offence and liable, on summary conviction
 
(b) in any other case,], to a fine not exceeding [F2 level 4 on the standard scale].

I have been informed the level is £2000


What happens if the window cleaner does not pay his fine? will he go to prison? or will the bailiffs empty his home? or if they can't find goods to cover the cost of the fine do they reposse his home.

Cannot comment on that as have not looked into that


Why do you need a licence? whats wrong with the police going back on the beat and try catching a burglar or two.

The licence was brought in to protect the public, you have to say in one way it is a good idea. For instance a person who deemed a risk will be seen as not fit to having a licence. That is the good side for the need of a licence, check out the number of bogus window cleaners on Police websites. With a licence the public are with a trustworthy trade, but the problem is 90% are unaware of it so that is what the SLWCN is pushing for.


If its to stop a benefit cheat why not use a correct punishment, say 5 to 10 years without parole

If they can work whats stopping them working full time instead of part time!!

[windowwashers]

Is it only window cleaners who need a licence to earn a living or do other trades ( painters & decorator-plumbers-washing machine repairmen-mobile mechanics-mobile hairdressers plus the other trades who come to your home) have to have them?

If not then why are window cleaners being singled out?

What law was passed in parliment that makes it a crinimal offence to earn a living without a licence?

What happens if the window cleaner does not pay his fine? will he go to prison? or will the bailiffs empty his home? or if they can't find goods to cover the cost of the fine do they reposse his home.

Why do you need a licence? whats wrong with the police going back on the beat and try catching a burglar or two.

If its to stop a benefit cheat why not use a correct punishment, say 5 to 10 years without parole

I would welcome a licence in the UK, would stop all the cowboy cleaners and let us be know as a professional trade. to inforce a licence they would have to give a set date for the change and let every window cleaner get the licence, this would stop the people working cash in hand and undercutting (which costs every company and person that pays tax)

The only reason I can see if someone would not want a licence is because they are either not doing thing legal or the have something to hide. (thats just my opinion) and that was not aimed at the quote or any other on the forum

[williamx]

A licence would not stop stop the benefit cheat, whats to stop him saying I don't charge these people, they friends etc etc, these people know his doing a bit on the side, they like it that way they get away with paying peanuts.

If you want to bring in a licence, then you need to fine the right people first, and its not the window cleaner, its the customer who should be held to account, if the cleaner hasn't a licence then the custoemr should be fined, do it this way then any cleaner won't be able to get any work.

If its the police idea about having a licence, why is there not one for the whole of Scotland as there is only one police force.

Why do I have to buy more than one licence, taxi drivers are licence by one council yet they can drive in any council borough and pick up fares if these people have called them.

I have applied for a tender which if I get, will mean that I will be working in 10 different council areas so now I will need 10 licences, will this make me a better window cleaner or maybe a poor one.

Will OCS have to get one for every council in the Uk and for every employee, sounds expensive.

A licence will not stop some cleaners charging silly prices, I know of one cleaner who charge £2 to £3 per house, he has being a window cleaner for over 30 yearrs and is legal.

With a licence, you might be capped what you charge instead of how little some cleaners are charging.

Personally I can't see the point of a licence, there are many honest and trustworthy window cleaners who are working now, but because of a mistake they made years earlier, mostly when they were teenagers, they would not now be able to get a licence, so what are they to do, fire the staff and sell up?

If you want to improve the window cleaning trade, instead of a licence make it an offence
not to have had the following.

1  If you have not had proper training including Health & Safety and Risk Assessment procedures.

2  Public Liability Insurance

3  You are registred with the tax office as a window cleaner even if you have another paid employment.

4  Your vechicle is covered for business use not just social & pleasure.

If you still want to waste you money on a licence, please send it to me and I will issue you with a nice and fancy name badge with photo and DNA Id.

[DASERVICES]

This is one news item which makes me all for the licence :-

http://icayrshire.icnetwork.co.uk/irvineherald/news/tm_method=full%26objectid=19554590%26siteid=73592-name_page.html

[williamx]

This is one news item which makes me all for the licence :-

http://icayrshire.icnetwork.co.uk/irvineherald/news/tm_method=full%26objectid=19554590%26siteid=73592-name_page.html

This crime happened in a licenced area so the licence did NOT prevent it, so how is a licence going to stop the other rogue traders.

[DASERVICES]

Public awareness, if we get that then we are onto a winner. Bit like the AWPC becoming a recognised body in the industry and it becomes a selling point for the window cleaner in that the public would rather go for a AWPC member.

Likewise with the licence, the customer would only take on licensed window cleaners. This is where the Council need to help us as we are paying fees and receiving nothing in return.

With 2000 licensed window cleaners is there anything wrong with us getting together and improving our industry and helping each other out.

[williamx]

Having a licence is not the way forward. 

Private hire drivers are not allowed to pick from the street unless the passenger has pre booked the car, yet every day in Birmingham 1000's of passengers are picked up, mostly these customers are driven homes safely.

But there are hundreds who are overcharged, threatened, assaulted and some who are raped and robbed, the majority of these offences are carried out by licenced private hire drivers, so where is the safety in licencing.

The window cleaning trade needs to marketed better, its needs to be promoted better, what is better a licenced window cleaner or a fully trained, skillled and insured cleaner who is honest with his work and customers.

A licence will not achieve this but a goverment standard of practice mark would, everyone knows that a gas fitter has to be corgi registred, this means that he has undergone training and is a safe and efficent gas fitter, why can't window cleaners have this kind of support.

Why don't you lobby the goverment and Mr Brown so it can bring on a kite mark for all of the services industries that the general public want ( window cleaners- plumbers-mrs mopps etc etc)

Anyone who has a kite mark is them reconised as a proffessional and honest trader, if a trader hasn't one then its buyer beware.

You don't have to make it illiegal not to go on the course, but if your customers reconise that you do meet certain standards then they are more likely to come to you rather than someone who hasn't been regonised.

Having a law which says you have to do this or that, dosen't make it a good law, or a law that will work.

Common sense should at times prevail.   

[DASERVICES]

Having a licence is not the way forward. 

Private hire drivers are not allowed to pick from the street unless the passenger has pre booked the car, yet every day in Birmingham 1000's of passengers are picked up, mostly these customers are driven homes safely.

But there are hundreds who are overcharged, threatened, assaulted and some who are raped and robbed, the majority of these offences are carried out by licenced private hire drivers, so where is the safety in licencing.

The window cleaning trade needs to marketed better, its needs to be promoted better, what is better a licenced window cleaner or a fully trained, skillled and insured cleaner who is honest with his work and customers.

  

I am aware that in certain regions of the UK taxi drivers are fighting that those who are licensed have to be Police checked, as at present those that do school runs have to have this check. They want this check done throughout.

Licensed window cleaners also have to abide by standards as well , here is an example :- http://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/ACCI/nmsruntime/saveasdialog.asp?lID=4609&sID=2414

I think we beg to differ on this but we are paying for a licence up in Scotland and would like to see it run properly. We are not an association but a network of window cleaners throughout Scotland who have the same opinion.  Other licensed trades have also being doing the same, FED members in Scotland had been asking the FED for some years to help them out up here. In the end we thought it better if we got together and dealt with it ourselves.

You will find a large majority of unlicensed window cleaners would be all for the licence if it was enforced.

We will never please everyone but if we sat and moaned and did nothing it would never change.

We cannot change the licence it's there to stay so we need it to work for us, there is no harm in trying.

Cheers

Doug

[williamx]

Having a licence is not the way forward. 

Private hire drivers are not allowed to pick from the street unless the passenger has pre booked the car, yet every day in Birmingham 1000's of passengers are picked up, mostly these customers are driven homes safely.

But there are hundreds who are overcharged, threatened, assaulted and some who are raped and robbed, the majority of these offences are carried out by licenced private hire drivers, so where is the safety in licencing.

The window cleaning trade needs to marketed better, its needs to be promoted better, what is better a licenced window cleaner or a fully trained, skillled and insured cleaner who is honest with his work and customers.

  

I am aware that in certain regions of the UK taxi drivers are fighting that those who are licensed have to be Police checked, as at present those that do school runs have to have this check. They want this check done throughout.

Licensed window cleaners also have to abide by standards as well , here is an example :- http://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/ACCI/nmsruntime/saveasdialog.asp?lID=4609&sID=2414

I think we beg to differ on this but we are paying for a licence up in Scotland and would like to see it run properly. We are not an association but a network of window cleaners throughout Scotland who have the same opinion.  Other licensed trades have also being doing the same, FED members in Scotland had been asking the FED for some years to help them out up here. In the end we thought it better if we got together and dealt with it ourselves.

You will find a large majority of unlicensed window cleaners would be all for the licence if it was enforced.

We will never please everyone but if we sat and moaned and did nothing it would never change.

We cannot change the licence it's there to stay so we need it to work for us, there is no harm in trying.

Cheers

Doug

All taxi driver and private hire in Birmingham are police checked.

The only thing the licence agreement didn't cover was can the cleaner, clean windows, or does he miss bits and offers a bad and unproffessional service.

[Paul Coleman]

From the original post

"A licence from one area will not cover you for other areas, you need to have a seperate licence."

So how big an area do these licenses cover up there?  Are they run by town councils or by county councils?  How much per area does a license cost?

[DASERVICES]

http://www.slwcn.org/area.htm

This should explain it all, licensing by area

[williamx]

So does this mean that 93% of window cleaners in Glasgow are not licenced, and over 60 % of the cleaners in the other councils are also not licensed.

I think that with these figures then the majority of window cleaners do not want a license system.

It a bit like the poll tax, its looks good on paper but in reality its dosen't work.

[tacky]

it is a good thing .but look at the laws they have brought in the last 16 months . yet they nether employ xtra people to enforce these laws . you ll have ghost window cleaners like u ll have ghost taxi s  etc .if people can get things done cheaper they will . i m all for it .but at the end of day joe public dont give a monkeys  (  most of them anyway  )

[Paul Coleman]

http://www.slwcn.org/area.htm

This should explain it all, licensing by area

So, as I thought, someone based near city or county boundaries is at a distinct disadvantage because they would need multiple licenses.  I work in West Sussex, East Sussex, and Surrey due to being based close to boundaries.  I have had the occasional enquiry from Kent as well.  Even if licensing were to be started in England, I don't see why I should be placed at a commercial disadvantage.  I would need to either price higher or suffer reduced profits purely because of living near county boundaries.  If a licenmce were say £70 p.a. , I would need to pay £210 to maintain my existing work.  £140 extra a year may not sound much but it is a cost that would need to be factored into a quote.  The very least that should happen is that all window cleaners are put on a level playing field IMO - either by allowing the licence to cover the whole UK or by perhaps allowing a licence to cover the areas surrounding where the licence holder's business is based (IMO).

[DASERVICES]

People are entitled to their views on the licence but we must remember that it IS LAW in Scotland. If the SLWCN went to government to ask them to make allowances for unlicensed window cleaners then we would all know what the answer would be.

In the last review of the licence it was asked should it be deregulated , the answer was NO.

I understand where some people are coming from but the SLWCN cannot be seen to be breaking the law, we are sticking within the guide lines of the law.  We are all for reviewing the licence which we are in discussions with but to ask us to go to government to make allowances for people who break the law then we would not be taken seriously.

Is it working for our members then the answer is yes, already we are getting requests for licensed window cleaners which have been passed onto our members. Councils and major companies will be putting tenders through the SLWCN for our members. Major window cleaning companies will soon be joining as they have licensed their employees, there also may be the oportunity for them to tender out work to local licensed window cleaners. There are also more major things coming for our members, the public and government have given the SLWCN their full backing and would you believe it Councils.

One good point you have brough up William about d/d I will bring this up with Councils.

In summary it is LAW and a criminal offence, here is the link http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/legResults.aspx?LegType=All+Legislation&title=Civic+Government+(Scotland)+Act+1982&searchEnacted=0&extentMatchOnly=0&confersPower=0&blanketAmendment=0&TYPE=QS&NavFrom=0&activeTextDocId=2191918&PageNumber=1&SortAlpha=0

Doug

[Dean Aspects]

I live near 4 different licencing authorities and it is fustrating that legally i am only allowed to work in the county of Angus
This year i have been asked to work in Perth & Kinross,Fife and Tayside
I dont mind having to pay for a licence But one licence not four
Other trades can work wherever they want so why cant i?

Dean

[DASERVICES]

Dean,

This is where SOLAR and COSLA should have sorted this out, the last time the licence was reviewed the Task Force recognised that having multiple licences was a burden on the trade. COSLA were then tasked to look into this and rewrite the licensing law.

To date they have not done this since 2004, we are trying to pin them down on this but it is proving very difficult in getting hold of the person involved.

[williamx]

If you want to find this person, why don't every cleaner who works for the council withdraw their services.

He shouldn't be able to hide for much longer